Catherine:
Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted Podcast. This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose. I'm your host, Catherine Cowell. This episode I'm really pleased to be joined by Tim Little. Would you like to just introduce yourself, Tim?

Tim:
Hi, Catherine. Yeah, I'm Tim and I'm speaking to you from Chester. Although listeners will gather that I don't have a Chester accent.

I'm originally from Northern Ireland I retired after 30 years in the medical world, mostly as a GP. That was in January of this year past. And I've got a number of issues that we're going to talk uh about, I guess.

And um they include the whole realm of spirituality and particular how spirituality is a factor in in our ongoing development and growth. Yeah, so looking forward to to chatting.

Catherine:
Yes, yes, I am too. I think this would be a good conversation. So we met Well, I don't think I would have been particularly obvious to you and you were doing a seminar around sort of spirituality and human development. I thought that's really, really interesting and will be worth a conversation. So When would you say that faith or spirituality first became a part of your life?

Tim:
I guess it was it was never not part of my life, Catherine. I was brought up i in a family that was very, very uh faith centered uh back in Northern Ireland. And so I don't remember a life without a structure of going to religious services, gatherings.

I I don't remember life without awareness from what I was taught of God i in the world and that was the world I grew up in. But my my parents and those in the the little church that we belong to were you know were very careful that it was al was left clear that I had to make my own decisions with things. And so when I when I got to about fourteen, you know, I decided that I, you know, I wanted to sort of Commit myself to living a Christian life and and following Jesus.

Yeah. So it was there from the start.

Catherine:
Yeah The beginning of what you were describing was very much kind of growing up in a in a Christian culture. And I'm wondering whether you as an individual, as a child growing up whether you had a sort of a personal awareness of your own spirituality or of the divine?

Tim:
Yeah, yeah. I I I think I would probably say say something quite bold at this point. I don't think I've ever had a an experience where I didn't feel in the world a sense of uh awareness of uh of the divine.

What whatever words we want to use, you know, awareness of uh of presence. To me the world feels more than just concrete. You know, there is oh, there is wonder whether that's out in nature.

I grew up on a farm, whether that's with animals, whether that's with people There 's more to life than just concrete uh events and uh and relationships. There's energy. I've always, always felt that And and and it's interesting.

I have lots of friends who would use the word atheist. And uh I I respect that and so forth. And and I'll often say You know, how do you feel whenever you're standing up a mountain or whatever?

And and and they'll use various words and I'll go, well, I call that God. You know. You know, so I have always had that sense.

Catherine:
Yeah. That's really interesting 'cause I don't think everybody does.

Tim:
Mm.

Catherine:
Which is which is fascinating 'cause I think I had a faith from when I was very small, but but it took much longer I think for that kind of awareness of the divine presence being in all kind of in all things and everywhere. I think that has that's taken me decades actually, which I think is really interesting. But for you it was around really early.

Tim:
Yes, always a sense of something beyond. I use the word beyond a lot in terms of spirituality. You know what is beyond my my physiology, what's beyond my psychology?

To me, there's there is something beyond. And I agree with you, lots of people. don't feel it.

I'm a feely person. If you put me on the sort of Myers Briggs, I go off the scale feeling. So I have a an emotional awareness that sort of feeling awareness and I respect people who see the world differently.

As I said before, I I often can find common ground with people who don't label it in a way that I label it or certainly as I labelled it growing up.

Catherine:
Yeah. So what changed for you? You said that you made a decision in your early teens to follow Jesus.

Tim:
So so yeah, the decision of fourteen was was to sort of you know accept the beliefs that I've been brought up with around the nature of of religious faith, you know, identifying with Christianity. uh uh identifying with key Christian beliefs and and teachings. That pretty much shaped, well, all of my life, that's forty-two years ago.

is sh uh that has shaped my journey. Now, has it stayed the same? Absolutely not.

And I guess that's what you're that's why you've invited me here. It's changed It's changed very considerably in ways as I have as I have puzzled and and and and and and uh wrestled with with with questions. If I can almost try and preempt the next question, I want to want to bring a word into the conversation.

A word that was probably present for me even back then, and it's the word uncertainty.

Catherine:
Okay.

Tim:
Because religious faith can be viewed by many, many people. And again, I respect them and I honour their genuine uh beliefs. uh as something quite certain.

I and of course you you're you're depending on your memory a lot, but for me there was always A sense of uncertainty along with the sense of presence. You know, I felt something, but there was an uncertainty in how I could interpret that. Uh and and and so doubt for me has been d doubt along with uncertainty ha has been very, very, very significant.

I've doubted my my faith. I've doubted my interpretations. I've doubted what I've been taught.

I'm a bit of a natural skeptic in in in in some ways And so I I've I've lived with that. But you know, I've I've obviously been a scientist as well in terms of my career in medicine. And and so you know, the scientific inquiry has been useful to me to test things uh as I've gone through through life.

So I just I just want to put that word in. uh uh as well, the that word uncertainty, that that my faith has been uncertain. Less uncertainty about a sense of presence, definite uncertainty about how I interpret that uh and what conclusions that I can come to.

Catherine:
That's interesting, 'cause fourteen year old lads and twenty year old They don't always ooze uncertainty and neither do there's quite a lot of kind of Christian churchy cultures which also do not oo uncertainty. And I wonder I I wonder what the kind of connection relationship has been between the Christian culture in which you've been and how you would have wanted to be faithful to that and this sense of uncertainty.

Tim:
I I didn't express it much.

Catherine:
Right.

Tim:
You know, do I trust my memory even? I certainly wouldn't have gone around talking much about it back then. It's a reflection that I have now.

Let me think of a couple of examples. You know, in seeking guidance for my life, how do I make decisions uh yeah, along with my my wife and family. I I I look back at a at a lot of uncertainty that that's probably how I'm feeling it now.

It's it's in relation to decisions that I was making back in my twenties, etcetera.

Catherine:
Yeah. You say you didn't express that uncertainty. I'm wondering whether you expressed it much to yourself. Or whether you hid it from yourself as well?

Tim:
That is such a good question. I I've always been a ponderer and a wanderer. So so y Yes, I think I harboured it.

But I've always been a grappler with issues. How do I know that? Is that true?

You know, that sort of thing. But I guess back then, in terms of the communities that I was part of in my twenties and thirties, I sort of honour those traditions and and and and suppress to some degree the doubts and go, oh yeah, it's all right. I'll I'll I'll trust I'll try I'll trust that.

You know, I'll trust this person's interpretation. I'll use that evidence as a way of contenting myself a little bit.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm thinking of friends that I have who would also put themselves in the high in the feeling camp and I might be randomly tangenting here. But one of my observations is that sometimes when you start with feeling, that sometimes those people who kind of start from logic kind of get the first word. I wonder whether that played out at all for you, that whilst you were kind of pondering things, people had kind of given you a nicely logically shaped argument that it was difficult to say no to.

Tim:
Exactly, exactly. And and yeah, I can remember lots of situations where I brought doubts to Christian teachers, for example. I can think of one in particular when I was really quite young, probably still at university.

taking real significant doubts to a Christian teacher who presents a a uh you what you describe quite a logical flow uh o of argument and oh yeah yeah yeah of course and then you you know you damp as I said dampen down and suppress my doubts for a little bit. You know, maybe I'm a bit guilty of overplaying this a little bit, but uh for the most part I was pretty content in Christian culture church, culture, communities, very active. I was always an activist, you know, uh and and then got into leadership.

And and that was pretty good and enjoyable. And uh, you know, many, many friends and wonderful, wonderful times within you know at many, many different organizations.

Catherine:
Yeah. And what do you think that gifted you with, those communities and that involvement?

Tim:
Friendships, a sense of the collective of being together with others, of being able to work together with people, that was always really important to me and good fun as well.

Catherine:
Yeah. And then I know because you shared it on the seminar that there came a point for you when things sort of shifted significantly. And you had a bit of a crisis point. Do you want to tell us about that and what has emerged for you from that

Tim:
Yeah, yeah. So so I I'd like to suggest two points. I I I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but I'll start with the first one.

The first one was back in 2012 when I had quite a sig serious and significant mental health Crisis. That followed my father's passing just under a year previous. And that was hugely traumatic for me and for my family.

uh and that's you know that's over fourteen years ago now and for most of that fourteen years now I'm I've been saying I would not have m wanted to have missed that experience. Because I was very anxious, I was depressed, and and I had to accept I'm not in control of life. I I had to just take a break.

I had to rest. I had to depend on others. And In the recovery from that, I found characteristics of that presence that I was talking about earlier.

You know, I call that presence God. And I you know I don't actually don't know what you know how your listeners line up, you know, or d you know, in terms of comfort or or whatever. I know that lots of people shy slightly about the use of the word God.

I do use the word God. And and so in that time I I I believe that I found a presence, a a spiritual dimension to life that just enveloped me and and once again and brought a lot of comfort to me and my family However, it was a bit different. It it it was even less logical, perhaps And it took me into the contemplative traditions.

I discovered Richard Rohr and his teachings. I discovered the h the the the value of contemplation as a an exercise which to me is it is it you know it can be called prayer. It's it's it's simply pausing and stepping back.

uh uh and observing from a bit of a distance, getting a perspective on things. And so I did that, and and for me that was the fuel of my recovery. was was stepping back from the turmoil and struggles that I had been coping with, stepping back and and and being held not just by family and friends, but held by a sense of spiritual presence.

And that helped my recov my recovery substantially. Yeah, so that was the first of the two.

Catherine:
So I I'm really interested in how you were experiencing God in that recovery, as opposed to how you'd experienced God before that sort of that moment of crisis. Who was God to you before and how had that shifted?

Tim:
God certainly became less judgmental. God wasn't pointing a finger. There's a very simple four letter word.

It's love. You know, it was feeling loved. by friends, family, church, community, loved beyond what I felt within myself.

But I I'll never forget for the rest of my life walking through the field. behind where we lived. And I c I I remember it clearly there was round bales of straw.

It was a time of harvest. I remember the sun sh the sun was shining on these bales and there was casting a shadow. And to me that sunshine represented something beyond me that was infiltrating my life.

And I could just stand there and enjoy this heat, this warmth. It's this light. And and it it just it was just saying there definitely is an energy, a presence.

Yeah. I I get what you were saying earlier about the difference between feeling stuff and the more logical thinking stuff. In a mental health crisis, you have to give up with give up on thinking a bit.

You just have to because you can't think yourself out of a mental health crisis. You just can't.

Catherine:
Oh, yeah. Or you can't be at all.

Tim:
Exactly. It's often the thinking that gets you into a mental health crisis. But but You get us our new sense of priorities and so forth. But this'll become a bit more apparent in my second my second story. Do you shall I go on to that?

Catherine:
Not yet, no. I have another question. As you became alive to that presence of God as love in a new way, I am just wondering how that enabled you to encounter yourself differently.

Tim:
Oh, self-awareness. You know, I probably wasn't, well, I know I wasn't particularly self-aware in many, many ways before that, but Whenever you have that sort of mental health crisis, you you you you you you spend a lot of time uh agonizing about who you are and what you know what's going on. And so when you come out the other side of it, you're I discovered myself.

I I discovered the unhealthy stuff and I'd discovered stuff that had got me into trouble with my thinking. And I discovered that I was trying to please others and please myself. I was trying to uh change the world well that's not my job to do, you know, all sorts of stuff like that.

So you you become it's a it's a turning inward. It's it's a looking inward and And and going, ooh, don't like that. Oh, that bit's okay.

Actually I'm quite lovely. Some people do love me.

Catherine:
I like that. The thought that'd been going through my head, Tim, it is just that when the divine to you is this presence of love and not judgment. The wondering in my head is, does that make it easier to do that looking inwards and to sort of sit with yourself when you're doing it in the presence of one who is loving and not judging?

Tim:
Yeah, yeah, but I'm I'm gonna describe going forward, sorry, I'm in uh going forward I I continued to hold attention for another nine years I think going forward. So so while I had discovered Richard Rohr would talk about the the God within I while I had discovered that the sort of logical, theological, rational, thinking world hadn't gone away

Catherine:
Yeah. And how was that manifesting itself?

Tim:
So for the next nine years, I held, I continued to hold a lot of tension. I was a leader in a church, you know, that believed this, this, and this, that, and the other. But uh uh in in being a Christian leader for and a number of years going forward to that it within a church environment, I held continued to hold tension.

So with your permission, then I'll jump to the next, the next Sort of very significant. And this time it wasn't a sort of, there was no mental health stuff associated with it. But this time round, it was more political.

And and again, I know this isn't a political podcast, and I'm going to avoid going into politics. But there was around tw 2021, and your listeners will work aside immediately, around 20, early part of 2021. There were certain political things happening in the world.

And I looked at how elements of the Christian church were dealing with those political choices. And I this is when it became very rational, thinking, logical, theological for me And I got to the point of going, I need to seriously have a look at what I believe. Now, I want to we're I want to come back to the word uncertainty.

Uncertainty has been a thing was certainly a theme of those years of what I'm describing as holding things in tension. A lot of uncertainty around there. But that uncertainty for me just went up exponentially.

As I started grappling with political issues. And I knew this wasn't about feelings per se, this was about me being quite clear w w what uh where I stood on certain issues, not just political but but but but theologically Uh and and so I have shifted theologically. I shifted quite significantly theologically in 2021.

from more conservative traditions to a more of a contemplative tradition. But but I want to be I want to be really careful here That I was 51 at this stage, it it felt again a bit of a crisis. It felt a bit of a crisis.

for me uh in terms of crisis of faith and and certainly for a year or two it was a bit of a crisis of faith. So I I I had I had I had decisions to make. Do I support uh a sort of view of of this, that, or the other.

And I will be a bit more specific on a few things in a moment. But I I wasn't going to chuck you know, to use the the sort of standard phrase, I wasn't going to use chuck the baby out with a bath water here. I had fifty-one years of tradition.

Uh which I, you know, uh it's uh a language that I had, it's a way of living that I have. And I know that you and I have spoken a little bit more about a phrase of having a a Christian mother tongue. That's how I think in many, many ways.

But I grappled, I wrestled, I struggled with it a couple of Christian doctrines uh and when I just can 't subscribe and I can bring them all down to one particular view and that is that We are separate from God. I I'm not separate from God. God's really close.

And again, I'm re always really careful now that I'm using this three-letter word, and I know I have friends who I I I write a blog and I have a I have a couple of people who who go, Tim, you're using that word again.

Catherine:
But it is your mother tongue word for.

Tim:
Yes, thank you for that.

Catherine:
So I think you're allowed. Feel free.

Tim:
Yeah. Yeah. So I have studied to some degree the the the theologies around being separate from God and you know th theologies of original sin, for example, and so forth.

And I again I I don't want to go into theology and you might want to edit out some of my theology, but I just cannot believe That we're separate from God. If we believe in a God of love, truly, truly, true love, exemplified, for example, in Jesus. There's no room for separation.

So I sit here now confident that I am in no way Separate from the presence that I feel in the world, from the awe and wonder that I feel when I'm out looking at mountains or the sea. From the tenderness that I feel with close friends, with my wife, with the energy of life. I'm not separate from those things.

I'm not separate from quotes God. And wow, what a freedom. What a freedom that that brings Oh, this is where it gets really tricky.

I honor, I really, really, really honor and respect Everybody in the whole world who hold a doctrine of separ separation, of of of God as judge, uh, you know, of of punishment And I because I can't reject that because that's who I was for 51 years, or well, subtracting the childhood years or whatever. That describes my faith journey for that period of time. But I I have discovered that it's possible.

In fact, that it brings a lot of freedom to to take a different view. I have in the last four or five years, you know, studied Some of these themes in Christian history, and find that many others, many people much more intelligent and more knowledgeable, and have theologies which I would now subscribe to. Richard Rohr, Brian McLaren, many others.

And and I I just I I just want to say that I I just don't want this to cause any any division or or or fracture in relationships. Yeah. I I've changed the church that I go to.

You know, I I go to attend a different church than I did before. I still have interesting conversations with with leaders there, but you know, I I'm exploring Quakerism, for example, as a way of being i i in the world. their values.

I I met up with a friend recently. I've obviously lost contact with a lot of people with changing churches and so forth, but I met up with with a friend and and he he says You know, you remind me of uh Jacob wrestling with God because I I I really, really have wrestled. Uh and I'm very happy with where I'm at now.

Sorry. I've I've gone on a lot a lot there, Catherine, around sort of paratheological matters, but I I I trust you get my sincerity from it that I'm not wanting to now jump into a position of debate with conservative Christian thought I I want to continue to honour it and uh be in relationship with

Catherine:
Yeah. I was really interested by just how much actually you lit up and became energized when you talked about the freedom that has come.

Tim:
Oh, yeah.

Catherine:
So so how is that playing out for you? You know, how does that how does that make you walk through the world differently?

Tim:
I don't need fix, and neither do you. We're loved who we are. Nothing need be done.

Catherine:
Hmm. I'm wondering how much energy you used to put into Fixing yourself and others.

Tim:
Well, forgetting about the the energy to fix others. The energy that I tried to put into fixing myself. Oh yeah.

I I I used to really not like myself in many ways. You know, I used to think oh I've got to get better at this, I've got to make a improve this, I've got to have greater impact than that. Um But I I can honestly say, Catherine, if I was to you know, I'm struggling with some health I'm struggling with quite a few health issues.

And I I'm fifty six, I've no idea. You know, my father passed away when he was seventy one and I oh that's a bit young but I have no clue whether I make it uh even make it to 71. But I can honestly say that's fine.

You know, I just I I just um I'm I'm very, very content with where I'm I've got to now. Of course I want to live longer to see my grandkids grow up and so forth, but there's there is a real freedom with knowing that I don't need a f and it don't need to be fixed.

Catherine:
Yeah.

Tim:
It's a wonderful little phrase, I'm okay And so well and by the way, so are you. But that's maybe me fixing you. Maybe that's endangered me trying to fix you by saying you're actually okay. But I should you come to the conclusion yourself that you're okay rather than me trying to tell you that you're okay.

Catherine:
Oh That's an interesting kind of spiral one could end up getting, yes. The image that or the the thought that came to mind as you were sort of telling some of your story was this idea of you having welcomed parts of yourself. that sort of were always there through that.

So you you talked earlier about this idea of uncertainty. And it's it's great, isn't it, when you've got to a point where you don't absolutely require certainty. But the sense that that had always been there and that possibly I'm I'm tell me if I'm overinterpreting, but possibly there was an element to which you weren't able to welcome that in quite the way that you can now.

And also that sense of God, of the divine, having always been there. before you made your commitment to Jesus age fourteen, you know, you describe this kind of always knowing the presence of God. So as you I I'm just listening to your story and thinking actually that sense of I'm not separate.

almost like you had an intermission in your sense of I'm not separate. A kind of a a couple of decades of conservative Christianity in which you might have entertained the idea that you you have been. But there is I yeah, I'm just sensing that sense of the welcoming of all of Tim.

Tim:
I I I think I'd like to to to to point a little bit now, if I can, to normal human development. So it is normal for children to take the world very literally. Santa Claus is real.

The stories are real. You know, really this stuff really happened. And then young adults typically, and this is not universal, but typically young adults Sort of gravitate to peer groups of accepted identity , and there's a degree of conformity to that.

This is normal, you know. And then so often that last well into adulthood You know. And for many people they content of content to stay.

Then then there's a stage around sort of critique in an individualization of stuff and being ref reflective. Do I actually believe what the group believes and so forth, or have I got a a my own sense of uh of how things work out? Yeah.

And for me that's where the uncertainty can provoke questions a and and those questions bubble up to the surface. And and I'm sure some of your your readers will be familiar with sort of terms like dark night of the the soul and things like that. where that stuff can actually take take you down into sort of a a a a deeper place, a sadder place, often a place of lament even.

But the other side of that Can be and and for many is a place of mystery and an acceptance of uncertainty. And so now I can say happily I don't know about end times. I don't know what heaven is or isn't. I don't know.

And I am happy that I don't know. I don't know if I will meet my family again. I don't know, but I'm happy.

I really am. Oh yes, you were asking me about the interjection of stuff. And and I was pointing to saying actually it's normal to to have for it's normal for adults to go through those types of of of of thinking patterns in life.

And for a little reference, what I've just done is actually take you through a number of James Fowler's stages of faith But I I have described a Fowler 's stage as pretty much two, three, four, and five there in my own language. James Fowler was a Methodist, I believe, back in the seventies and eighties, and he studied how His uh studies were pretty much all Christians, how they sh how their faith shifted, and his book is is quite a famous, well-known book, uh Stages of Faith. Um and and that's an example of how I've wrestled with this stuff.

And and if someone says, Oh, Tim, you're really going off on your own, and how do you know what you you're believe is true now. I'll I'll say, well actually we've known for at least for at least fift uh coming up in fifty years since Fowler did his research that actually it's normal for e for faith to evolve. It is totally normal that faith evolves and shifts.

I I would say we take stuff and we honor the past and we we we recognize our journey th through it. the the bit that we get to after that wrestle, after those dark nights, can be very, very bright.

Catherine:
Yes, yes. My observation was around the fact that actually That sense of awareness of the presence of the divine from when you were very small kind of hasn't gone anywhere And that wrestling with uncertainty that you now you look back, you can see that that's always been there rumbling under the surface that having come to the other side, c having moved through those stages of faith, there is a new ability to welcome those parts of yourself, which perhaps you needed to subjugate in order to be part of the group. Or is that not quite how you would see it?

Tim:
I I I think I genuinely agree with you. I don't know if I d agree with the word subjugate because it sounds too active for me.

Catherine:
Okay. Yeah.

Tim:
That it just happens. It's normal for people just to accept the group.

Catherine:
Yes.

Tim:
You know, the group says you can be certain of this, that, and the other. You go, yeah, I can be certain of this, that, and the other. It's not at every moment you go, I'm uncertain, but the group says I can be certain.

It it just naturally happens and and and but but at times then certainty bubbles up to the top and that can be crises times. as has been for me. Do does that make sense?

Catherine:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I I think I would agree with you.

I'm really hearing your story and thinking about stories of others that I know and my own. It's not that any of the stuff that I have discovered in recent years was never there at all. As I look back, I can see that there were moments when I might have been aware of it earlier had I had the lenses that I'm currently wearing, but I absolutely didn't at the time.

Tim:
I really, really, really want to be careful. I cannot use universalize this to others. And I the last, last thing I want to say. To be saying is that I've got to a better place than others because it's different for everybody, you know, and and and a lot of people are very, very, very happy living with And continuing to hold on to a a degree of certainty.

Catherine:
Yes.

Tim:
I have many, many, many friends. who remain certain of all sorts of what would be known in in the Christian tradition as truths And that's fantastic. I I respect that.

I guess the only thing I would probably ask is Have a look at normal human development, which whether that's described by Fowler or by other models of human development, spiral dynamics or uh stages international do you suggest that adults do continue to sort of see things differently, wider uh a as they uh get older. But it comes at different stages. It's not in any way universal.

It's not progressive. It's not always true. Um it it's variable.

Catherine:
Yes, yes. I think what you've done though, Tim, very eloquently and authentically is to describe your spiritual journey. And to talk about that as something which it it is normal to happen.

And I I think that the other side of what you are trying to say at the moment, which is you really wouldn't want to diss those who haven't been through this journey. Equally, I would say there's an awful lot of people who find themselves on this journey. kind of without a map and without reference points because when you are part of that community that is kind of holding an identity and a set of beliefs and some paradigms about how the world works.

Nobody warns you that this crisis might occur. And very often what people find is that there isn't a space in which to to explore this and I wonder whether sometimes it becomes for people more of a crisis than it needs to be because n because nobody said that this is a normal thing that might occur

Tim:
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So so for me 2021 was a very very lonely year.

And c can I just go back briefly? Not only do I not want to say that everybody has to do this , not only do I not want to say I'm further on than others. I really, really don't want to say that.

I I I also want to say it's really, really, really tough stuff. Would I wish what I've been through on someone else. No. No. If somebody's really content in their faith My golly, I don't want to wish the sort of turmoil on them that I have been through, the wrestles, the struggles, the questions, the grief, the loss, the fear, the uncertainty.

I've arrived somewhere, but I'm not saying it's the best place for everyone. I really, really am not. And and I apologize unreservedly if anybody hears that in my v in what I voice I but But but I'm struggling for the language and and and I really want to communicate this.

It's really difficult to find the language that says, I've got to somewhere, I love it. But you're okay where you're at. And I don't want to fix you.

And I don't want to in any way be suggesting that you should be aspiring to where I'm at. Having said that now, now's the time to go back to the word that you used, map As I said, I had a tough year, particularly 2021, feeling very lonely. And it was discovering writers like Bran McLaren that that helped me get through that But if you don't mind, well I know you don't mind because we've discussed it, I'm writing a book.

This book is going to describe this journey So I actually I've said things in this talk that I want to put in the book. So there is a map. And the map I would suggest You know, well, James Fowler wrote about it in nineteen eighty one.

Brian McLaren has written about it extensively. Brian McLaren talks about Simplicity as a starting point, and then complexity where we grapple with issues and we hold complexity, and then comes the perplexity, the struggle, the uncertainty, the fear, the loss. And then he points to harmony once we can get through that.

But interestingly, Brian McLaren, and I didn't see this necessarily at the time when I first read it, he he says the circle can go round again

Catherine:
Do you know I was about to s I was about to say that that actually it's really interesting that you've talked about two different times of of crisis in different ways. where you sort of been around the circle. And I guess one of the features of having been around the circle more than once in different contexts is that you do begin to develop a bit of a map because you have experienced that kind of going through that.

It's potentially slightly less disorienting Not always. I think we can always be shocked by that. But it's potentially slightly less disorienting because you kind of know that that this is a thing that happens.

Tim:
Yeah. And I will I will be saying again and again, it's my map.

Catherine:
Yeah So

Tim:
number one, it's my map, and number one, I can only see it as I w as I look back. I didn't see it at the start. So it's going to be a bit of a pick and mix book.

F if others can identify you, oh yeah, that makes sense, but that doesn't, you know. It may change a little bit, but the subtitle of the book is A A Restless Doctor's Journey. Through fear, loss and uncertainty as three predominant emotions that I have walked through in life in a restless way.

So that's going to to appear sometime, I hope, in twenty twenty seven.

Catherine:
Excellent. Yes. And I think the more those things are available so that when people are in the middle of a situation where The rest of their community and this does happen to people quite a lot. If the rest of your community is telling you that you have walked off of the map away from God into a dark place from which you need to stop backsliding, then in the middle of that wrestle that can be really quite difficult. And so knowing that this is not abnormal, I think, is deeply healthy.

Tim:
Thank you. And but I I also want to say that I I ha have not really encountered that degree of uh of critique.

Catherine:
Maybe your younger self, Tim, would have offered the critique.

Tim:
Potentially. Potentially. But I I I honestly believe that the vast majority of those in the Christian community, or indeed any community, are are sufficiently uh filled with enough love to to to to to recognize that life takes us in different ways. You know, if I was suffering from s some illness or whatever, I would experience love if I'm holding different views, then I also experience uh love in in in the very most most part. But it's tricky because people might perceive that I have abandoned stuff, but I really don't think I have.

Catherine:
Hm.

Tim:
I I I have maybe Put on slightly different paired glasses and how I see things.

Catherine:
Yeah.

Tim:
Or the metaphor I love is of sort of be in a hot air balloon and go up and sort of see a little bit more of the territory than I might have if I hadn't done that.

Catherine:
Where do you sense God is inviting you at the moment on your journey? Where can you sense growth and new exploration?

Tim:
Oh wow. What a question, Catherine. Well, for me, the big thing is at the moment is my health.

You know, I'm 56. And I could express a lot of frustration about uh the sort of limitations that that seems to be putting on me. I've got an overactive parathyroid condition and that causes kidney issues.

But I can't not say what I'm gonna say. Th there's a gift in that for me. And that gift is that that brings me into a place of uh a place of acceptance.

Uh that that's what what's good for me. That is what life's offering me now. And maybe years ago I would have s used the phrase that pushes me to depend on God.

And and m maybe some of your listeners would go, well, why is Tim not saying that that pushes them to depend on God? I I guess it's just that I I see quotes God m within my resilience more now than I previously did in terms of maybe of seeing God more as an external presence. Oh, we get we're getting into really interesting territory.

So we're um I'm I'm invited into myself more and more to Hold that presence within me to know that presence expressing itself in love. I can't watch the news my c sense of connection with the world, with others, particularly those that are suffering in the world, is is huge. Absolutely huge.

And why am I writing a book? I'm writing a book to just express both to myself and potentially to readers that the journey has a happy ending. Because even though I can't fix the devastation in the world, I can rest and I can be at peace and I can have a sense of freedom.

I think that's what Jesus invited us into in his teachings as recorded in Scripture uh invited us into uh a place of peace. So I see I see quite a bright future. Of course there's times I get stressed, you know I don't want any oh Tim's claiming to live in this state of perpetual happiness.

No, I certainly do not, but but I do When I step back, I live by like I live by the canal here in Chester and it's literally three or four minutes walk away. It takes me three or four minutes to get to a place where I can both literally and metaphorically, take a step back from the water's edge and see the narrowboats, see the ducks, see the swans occasionally, see the people And just step back into a place of of rest. And I can almost let my anxieties and thoughts and and and and and and feelings travel with the narrow boat and just step back from it.

It's a lovely metaphor I have, but for me it's also a quite possible literally because I uh of where I live.

Catherine:
My last question, probably. What do you think having Christianity as your mother tongue has gifted you? in this journey.

Tim:
As exemplified in the word tongue, you know, it gives me a language a way of expressing myself in in in difficult times. It gives me a model which Christians generally call prayer. It it gives me that awareness of God.

It gives me I think above all I I have to come back to the sort of scriptural recordings of of of the life of Jesus. You know, wow. to be a follower of Jesus, where he saw the best in people, where he comforted, where he taught stuff that is totally at odds with how the world is was then and and and and unfortunately still is now, taught peace, nonviolence.

So yeah, it gives me all of those things. And and and it it gives us a message, doesn't it? And and this is where I'm I'm going to sort of get a little bit my appeal to anyone who is tempted by world views that don't treat the poor well, don't treat the hungry well, don't tri treat the sick well.

If anyone is tempted to sort of align with those worldviews. I I could find a Bible that has what's called red letters in it, you know, the words of Jesus in in red. Man, you know, I cannot this is this is the struggle in twenty twenty one.

I cannot align with with hostility and cruelty. Um if people have managed to get through the the whole of this podcast without turning it off and and and saying oh he's he's spouting rubbish. You know, if you've got to this point You know, th this is where you you are getting a little bit of the the message of of Jesus is v really needed.

Really needed.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think you've done a very good job, Tim, of of emphasising that this is your journey.

And thank you. Very, very much for sharing it. So I know that you do have a blog, you're writing a book.

If people are interested in the stuff that you are putting out in the world, where would they find it?

Tim:
Yeah, well thank you for offering to put it at the bottom of the page or whatever uh when this goes online. But but essentially it's blog B-L-O-G. dot timlittle dot org. Timlittle, just remember that it's L-Y -T-T-L-E. So uh blog.

timlittle So that's the best place to find me. I put my email address in every blog post. You know, I offer support to people.

At present I'm not making any charge for any support I offer people. And uh the blog will contain details of the book when it's nearing nearing its birth.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. So you say you offer support to people. What sort of support are you offering?

Tim:
So I think If you don't mind me saying, I know you've invited me to have another conversation about my interest in uh what's called men's work or you know the male journey type stuff that we're we're on. So most uh most of the folks I I support are men who've encountered some sort of difficulties in life or whatever. And uh uh I offer a sort of informal support t to t to to to folks in that in that situation uh within a particular charity, which we can talk about next time perhaps and in general. So but it's not just men, but you know, so if anybody anybody wants to drop me an email, um very happy with a con to have a conversation.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much Tim.

That's been really great. Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Loved Called Gifted podcast. If you'd like to get in touch, you can email lovedcalledgifted at gmail.

com You can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted. com and that's also the place to go if you're interested in the Loved Called Gifted course. Or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching.

Thank you for listening.