Catherine:
Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted Podcast. This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose. I'm your host, Catherine Cowell. So I'm really delighted to be joined this morning by Maria. Manuela Silva. Would you like to tell us where you are in the world and what it is you do in the world?

Maria:
Yes, my name is Maria Manuela Silva. That tells you that I am not, although I am British now, I'm not English born. I was born in Portugal. But I have lived all my adult life in the UK and although I lived most of it in London now on retiring I'm moved to Canterbury where I live near my daughter and grandchildren. So that's where I'm coming from. Canterbury, a very happy place right now, because of course of all that's been happening around the enthronement of Sarah Malali

Catherine:
Yes.

Maria:
Yeah, which is really exciting. Very much so. And joyful.

Catherine:
There was so much joy that day. It was wonderful. Really exciting. So that's where you are, and what do you get up to?

Maria:
Ah, yes, well, having retired from work as the graphic designer within an education setting, I'm nowadays a spiritual director. and also have the great privilege of supervising other spiritual directors. And sitting above that, I am the director of the Encounter Course a three-year long formation course in spiritual direction. So every every year we send out a cohort of fully trained spiritual directors into the world.

Catherine:
Literally.

Maria:
Yeah.

Catherine:
So for people who don't know, would you just like to give us a bit of an idea of what an earth a spiritual director is?

Maria:
Well, uh here in Canterbury in Kent we call ourselves spiritual accompaniers because that's what we do. We accompany others in their spiritual path, w whatever that might be, by offering a very safe, very confidential, very welcoming space, usually once a month, but sometimes with longer gaps. where people can really come and reflect on what is happening their lives and hopefully find God where they are and with who they are.

Catherine:
Yes, yeah, yeah. And it is a beautiful thing. I do it too. And it's it's within that world that we met. Indeed it is, yes. Yes, yes. So you're part of the London Centre for Spiritual Direction, which does all sorts of brilliant things for spiritual directors and for people seeking accompaniment, which is great.

Maria:
I am. We are a a small trust, but uh we try to offer as complete a package as we possibly can in terms of formation. And then support. And the support has two main aspects to it. A directory that people can become members. and therefore can then be visible to whoever may be looking for a spiritual director. And also a very comprehensive program of development, CPD if you like. And of course for members only we also offer some regular extra opportunities to come and meet and network and learn together. So Yeah, we try to be as supportive as we possibly can.

Catherine:
Yes, and it's great, I can I can attest to that. So what drew you into spiritual direction?

Maria:
Well Catherine, it was a complete accident. The faith stream that um I come from had no language for any of this. It really was an accidental encounter born out of despair that led me to a retreat where I met somebody who called themselves Spiritual Director. and I had a session with them as part of the retreat. And in that half an hour conversation, so much opened up for me. It was like a revelation, to be honest. And so I set about finding out how could I get a spiritual director, particularly at a time when I was really needing a safe, hospitable place, you know, to open up and inquire. And then from then, because I received so much, I wondered if this was something I could offer. And I trained. And so the rest is history really. Yes, yeah.

Catherine:
So do you want to tell us a bit about how you encountered faith for the first time? If you look back, where do you think you first encounter the divine.

Maria:
My first encounter uh with God was through the Catholic Church because that being born in Portugal in Lisbon Although my parents only attended church for funerals, baptisms, and weddings, they sent me, as as you are, having been baptized to catechism. so that you can then do f first communion and then beyond that, solemn communion as we called it, we understand it as confirmation. So I did my first communion, but I found it a profoundly frightful experience. It was filled with fear the way that I was inducted in a way into knowing about God. But at the same time there were some Swiss missionaries living in the same apartment block as I did, who invited me, or rather my mother, to send me to Sunday school. So there I had a another encounter, but this time with a very, very different god, because for the first time I met a Jesus who was alive and who loved me. And I absolutely fell in love with the parables. I could not stop reading the parables. And so I had this twin track And at some point, I was about ten or eleven, I felt I had to choose. So I chose to become a Protestant. I abandoned my catechism studies in the Catholic Church and became fully committed to this little church run by Swiss missionaries in the centre of Lisbon.

Catherine:
Yeah. And you talked about encountering Jesus through the parables. So what was Jesus like for you?

Maria:
He was my best friend. That's how I can describe it. That's how I remember him when I was very young. Remember I was eleven, twelve, thirteen. It wasn't really until I started to go to youth camp. run by Youth for Christ back in Portugal that I understood that this friendship was inviting me to a deeper relationship with God and a deeper commitment. So as a teenager I remember very clearly in one of these camps standing up and confessing my willingness to follow Jesus. So he wasn't just that he was with me, but that I would follow him too Yes, yeah.

Catherine:
When we first talked, you talked about this journey of going from fear to trust. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?

Maria:
Yes, well if I may start with fear then. Being raised uh in Portugal in what was the the sixties, late fifties, early sixties, yes I'm really rather old now. We lived under um a fascist regime. So politically it was a very frightening experience because of secret police because of informants in fact to the mantra at home from my dad was be careful what you say the walls have ears So there is that sort of overall environment of fear. The authorities pretty much could do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. And that fear then it stretched into my becoming a Protestant because although Protestant faith or streams of faith were not illegal, they were very much frowned upon. We were seen as cults. And also we weren't allowed to congregate in public. Most of our churches were actually in underground spaces. in you know in buildings in Lisbon because from the 1930s we weren't allowed to build churches uh over ground. So that was a a fear around that as well. And then of course the the culture was one of honour and shame. So at home there was always this really implicit and explicit fear of bringing shame to the family name. In a way the the unit is the family and we were a very tight uh family where the individual's needs desires really need to be sublimated under the honour of the family name So all around me there was that kind of fear. But I I suppose the earliest one was that fear of God as is no quite a stern judge who required a great many rituals, I guess, in order for me to make it across, possibly. That subsided somewhat because of my move into Protestant faith. But still that there was politically, socially and within the family, a great deal of fear. And later on I learned that also that really connected with my budding formation of personality, that was one that also tended towards anxiety and fear. Yeah, yeah.

Catherine:
So did any of your family follow you into the Protestant faith, or was that quite a solitary journey? Oh completely solitary.

Maria:
In fact I was forbidden to mention my faith whenever we were in family situations, which was most weekends. It was seen as something quite peculiar that I would grow out of. In fact, at one point, when I became particularly serious around about 16 years old, my mother considered and threatened me with taking me to a psychiatrist. to deprogram what she felt was my brainwashed state of mind. Gosh, yeah. Yes. It was quite something, right? Yes. So quite lonely really. Yes, and I was an only child. So it was. It was a lonely journey. But I guess Being a Protestant suited me. I am quite protesting by nature. So I just kept I kept protesting I do I do remember when after I did my A levels. Well the year before you start applying for university. So I put in all my applications through and I realize afterwards where I had boldly declared that I was a Protestant. My mother had gone after me and deleted that and uh described me as Catholic. And when I confronted her with this, because I was really angry about this She explained that I probably wouldn't get an offer at university unless I said I was Catholic this was still pre revolution. Although the revolution came hot on the heels of me doing A levels.

Catherine:
Yeah.

Maria:
So when was the revolution in Portugal? It was twenty fifth of April nineteen seventy four Yeah. And was there fear in that too? But first of all, there was just this huge sense of liberation I remember it like it was yesterday, the actual morning. We was called the Revolution of Carnations because only one or two people, secret police, died. It was a peaceful revolution. The country was ready for change. But the the officers, the the armed forces that led the revolution were very, very influenced by socialism uh and some by you know communism. So to begin with that was that fear were we going to fall from fascism into communism. So that took a few months to resolve But resolve it did and Portugal is now happily democratic and uh part of the European Union now. Yes, yeah.

Catherine:
So you went to university as a Protestant. Well I didn't. You didn't? Oh okay. No.

Maria:
Everything changed with the revolution, as things do, right? This was an extraordinary journey for me because my particular college, which was engineering, I was going to do chemical engineering. I've always loved the sciences. Shut down because it was v extremely left wing. It was the most left-wing institution. at the time in Lisbon and therefore in the country really. And we you know, we got rid of all the top professors because we deemed them to be fascist. So the whole you know, I enrolled, I got a place Uh I went to a few lectures, but it was it was hopeless. You know, there wasn't anybody at the helm. So the government shut it all down and sent us off to do what they called civic service And I had to go and count the number of shops in a town called Armada across the river from Lisbon. And I protested. I literally protested. I took my what was really draft papers into the into the relevant department and stood before somebody uh at a desk and just ripped them up and gave them back and said, I'm not doing this. So I set about trying to find an alternative gap here for me, which brought me to to London. I discovered that I could learn English and work part-time at what was then London Bible College, now London School of Theology. And I got all the required permits uh because I needed a work permit as a student to be able to do this and off I came, me, my suitcase and my guitar, knowing nobody There was no social media in those days, so no way of swapping photographs. I didn't know what the person picking me up looked like. And I just described what I looked like and my guitar with a sticker that said Jesus and this is how they were going to identify me.

Catherine:
Wonderful. I I'm imagining that as quite a freeing experience in some ways to be able to be yourself with your faith amongst other Protestants.

Maria:
Oh, absolutely. I cannot tell you, Catherine, the joy of discovering that, first of all, we had freedom of association. We could meet wherever we liked, in public, in private, but that there were so many of us that there was I I was plunged and and beautifully held actually in a college full of of Christian students all doing theology while I clean their rooms and their toilets and in the afternoons went off to English classes. Of course then, because we were all foreign, the the girls are doing these jobs, they took us to church and I had never seen such big churches And so much joyous worship and uh it was an absolute joy. That's the only way I can remember it. And very freeing indeed, yes.

Catherine:
Yes. So Kanda continuing your story your faith story really. What was your image of God like at that point?

Maria:
Well, interesting that you should ask that because I believe in a Trinitarian God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I was very close to the Son I knew virtually nothing about the Spirit, because it wasn't really talked about very much in the in that stream that I'd come from. And God the Father was quite distant. It was somebody that I would desperately wanted to know and connect with, but somehow felt a little bit out of reach. Part of it was the fact that way back when one was so young, you know, God was seen as very stern and rather cross And my own father was a a distant figure in my life. So I had really no no sense of how I could connect with with the father. So that's where I was. Still quite afraid, you know, what that might look like. Very happy to hang out with Jesus. And now in an environment where people were talking about the Holy Spirit, which was just like a voyage of discovery for me.

Catherine:
Yeah.

Maria:
Tell us a bit about that discovery. Well, having done my gap year, uh I was supposed to come home. But by then I'd also decided I wanted to stay in the UK because I felt so much more comfortable. So I I was offered a place to do chemical and engineering at London University But then decided, no, actually this this wasn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to do theology Where my parents said, absolutely not. We will not support you in that. So I didn't go home. I stayed another year as a cleaner, just sort of marking time, protesting essentially. This is a theme in my life, Catherine. And then eventually the wonderful principal, Reverend Gilbert Kirby, said, Maria, I I hear that you want to do some theology. The college would be very happy to give you a scholarship for your fees, but your parents would have to support you in terms of your maintenance. So I put that to them and they said, well, absolutely not for a degree, but you can do something for two years. So that's what they did. They supported me for two years and I did uh the Cambridge Diploma i in faith, I think. I can't even quite remember or it was called a long time ago. But uh I did a two year theological studies at LBC. And that's where I began to encounter the work of the Spirit, the renewal was coming into the church, the whole house church movement. was arriving and we had lots of visiting speakers and so I I discovered the work of the spirit

Catherine:
Yeah. Right at the beginning of our conversation, you talked about that encounter with a spiritual director at quite a difficult time and and you spoke about the fact that that was completely unknown within your tradition. I wonder what that shift was like from that kind of youthful enthusiastic faith with a slightly distant God. I I think quite often the gaps begin to show, don't they? Or the cracks in that. And I I wonder what shifted for you in terms of what were the cracks that you were beginning to find find and and the difficulties that you're beginning to find, which would ultimately be an invitation into something deeper. Yeah Well the cracks all came at once.

Maria:
Being somebody who is forward looking, always on the go, I just got busy Having done my course for the two years, I got married. I met somebody at college and we got married. He was an evangelist. So we were going to Be present in places where a lot of people didn't want to be present, which was the more deprived areas of London And so we did. So we got incredibly busy. And it was all about evangelism. So, you know, it's all about Jesus still, essentially. And and of course alongside that busyness of ministry, I worked And then I I became a mother and um within three months of becoming a mother I embarked on a degree course with the Open University. So between all of that I was incredibly busy I was furiously learning, but not exactly connecting deeply with my spirit and God's spirit within. Uh I was just very busy and that's the way that I now know. is kind of uh oh pay attention Maria the business is hiding something and that went on for a very long time. I started working in a secondary school in Brixton in in in in a London that suited me to the ground. I loved it. There I became a a graphic designer. So it was all onwards and upwards, Catherine.

Catherine:
Until it wasn't anymore. Before we kind of get to the it wasn't, I I wonder where you were seeing God at work in those deprived places.

Maria:
Well y to be honest, it was incredibly challenging. We started off on a an estate in North West London. There was a lot of growth and the church grew hugely uh a and still is still is, you know, uh significant church in the area planted in the middle of this estate which is wonderful. But also the growth was in beginning to respond to the needs with social action. So employing a community worker, opening up a community center. opening up an employment center. You know, we were exploring all of these ways of making the gospel visible. And again the same when we moved into North Kensington, we were at the shadow of Grenfell Tower in a tiny little mission church run by Shaftesbury. a tiny church of twelve people with a big building and quite a lot of money it turned out but but you know no real impact on the community so that's again we just did that again And for that actually we received an enormous grant from central government with no strings attached, which was quite, quite extraordinary, to open up, to develop the center. into an employment centre, into a community centre. And also we opened it up to churches of other languages because within North Kensington there were many expressions of of nationalities and heritage. So we had an Italian church, a Portuguese church, a Spanish. It was wonderful to see the building come alive And even though the English church did struggle, and to this day it's very alive, but still small I think being surrounded by big, glamorous churches in Kensington, right, makes it quite hard. Nevertheless, you know it showed me the connection between faith and social action as a a legitimate response and a much needed response. So we were busy, my goodness.

Catherine:
Yes. Yes. And and seeing really good stuff happening. Oh yes. Extraordinary stuff happening. Yes. Yeah. I wonder if there are any stories that kind of come to mind as we're talking of of seeing God at work

Maria:
Um, just con um connecting with people. We started off a little mothers and toddlers club called Little and Large and to see mums come in with their children. And I was there 'cause I was a young mum. My daughter was born soon after we started uh at Latima. And it was wonderful to see them come in and to find a safe space. And also an enriching space for the children, but also for the mums. And some of them stayed and came to church. uh which was wonderful. Also to see through the employment project, people's lives changed, finding employment, finding skills, 'cause there was a lot of end skilling and helping. that way. You know, we had dedicated workers to do that. And a a kind of redeeming something in their lives. And again some of them, not the majority, but some of them did come to church. And also finding compassion. for the s stories that came in day in, day out, really, really difficult stories of drug addiction and alcoholism and domestic abuse. You know, we we welcomed all of these stories and we did our best to support and to f actually to provide a safe space.

Catherine:
Hm. Yeah. Which is interesting 'cause that's a theme that you came that I'm reminded of your description of spiritual direction being about that safe space. Often there are themes, aren't there, that kind of Follow us, that you know, there is something in your heart. But yes. So what was the busyness hiding, Maria? You said that you've learned that that it's well

Maria:
The busyness was hiding a profound, a much deeper knowledge of God in me and through me. Most of this work, although I was very present to it and very involved and engaged, it was very much focused on my husband and his ministry. So there was something deeply undeveloped about me. But I did, funnily enough, although there wasn't space or really the permission to develop these things within the ministry, at work, because it was um a faith based school, I was very much encouraged to bring my faith to work and to develop gifts. Gifts I had no idea I had. So I guess things were happening, but I just wasn't necessarily joining the dots of creativity. I didn't know that people come into my office and just sitting there for a chat was something about spiritual direction in the making. Yes. Of of um being able to have a look at the bigger picture and really develop the Christian ethos of the school and then being sent out to other schools. to help them too with that. So there was a lot kind of developing, but I didn't have a vocabulary for it or a context. in what I thought was the important place, which was ministry. And that really wasn't available to me.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. So were women having ministry or being in ministry, was that something that happened within your tradition?

Maria:
No. It was for men only Not so much in the UK, certainly in Portugal, not so much in the UK. In the UK it was much more to do with how uh the dynamic within the marriage worked out.

Catherine:
Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering what the grief was that was hiding underneath the busyness.

Maria:
Yeah, it was still that kind of wondering how the all these pieces kind of joined up. My love of theology that wasn't necessarily finding expression My love of the social sciences, I graduated uh with a degree in social sciences, particularly human geography. So deep, deep understanding of society at large and all the powerful social economic movements and geographical movements, the importance of place, then the creativity of graphic design. Because I did a lot of research which I then translated into offering programs of well-being for students and staff, doing all that research on brain and what's good for us, and none of it was joining up. It was just things that I did. as kind of little geezers, you know, o of of of expression of self, but without having a really good sense of self. I was very much in some ways in the background

Catherine:
Yes, yeah. I'm just thinking of conversations I've had with people for whom the real thing in inverted commas is Christian ministry and so can be doing all sorts of things that God is evidently in. and still feeling like they're not really proper. Yes, absolutely.

Maria:
Yes. Oh well I'm a graphic designer but not really. Oh I do theology but not really. Oh I'm a social uh human geographer, but not really. Almost like a little hummingbird, you know, it's sort of drawing nectar from all different flowers, but not quite not quite seeing that, becoming integrated, I guess.

Catherine:
Yes, 'cause the main thing is Jesus and what Jesus is up to and what you're doing in church.

Maria:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And you know, I I got I drew great fulfilment from my work. at a a school called St. Martin in the Fields. And I think that kept me going, to be perfectly honest. That and telling my daughter all my stories. of Portugal and being a Protestant and revolution and how important all of this was I felt for her. So she got a big downloads of my story. She was a really willing audience. I didn't find an audience anywhere else for that.

Catherine:
What was the sort of perspective paradigm shift that you needed in order to be able to come into who you are and to discover something of an integration of yourself?

Maria:
Well, do you know when you're learning to drive, one of the things you have to learn to do is an emergency stop. Yeah. Well, that's exactly what happened with my life. It everything ground to a halt in the space of eighteen months. And so there was crisis after crisis after crisis where I just came to the end of myself. The resources that had enabled me to keep going, to be forward-looking, to move on to the next thing Just what there anymore, completely collapsed. The way I described it in that very first retreat The words came out of my mouth and and I'd never said it before and I hadn't constructed the sentence. But what I said was, I lost faith in the faith that I had, but I hadn't lost faith in God Hmm. So I found myself in that place of what we now perhaps call a little bit of deconstruction, that it was more in a sense what it felt like is that the scaffolding of my life. Fell off. Hmm. And there I was. And it was time to take a deep, deep, long look and uh perhaps find a different way of being that wasn't driven by fear. And you know, fear is a very good engine. Gives you great energy. You just keep running, right?

Catherine:
Yeah.

Maria:
Or alternatively driven by the freeze, the kind of disappearing into the background, the wanting to be invisible. That's another way I managed that. And it was time to look at it, to stop running, to stop being invisible

Catherine:
and to have a good long look. Hmm. So what was it about your faith that you'd lost faith in? Ah very good question.

Maria:
I just didn't have the resources to cope a period where I lost a very dear uncle, both my parents. I entered menopause, and my husband told me he no longer loved me. All came. you know, in the very quick succession, particularly towards the end. And I had no spiritual resources. I did not know how to pray. What could I ask God for? Particularly with the ending of my marriage, everything was gone. Ministry is gone, right? What I thought is a valid expression of my life that I'd invested 32 years in. Hmm. My family home had to go. just about everything got rolled up or rather the scaffolding all fell off. And I was grieving for my parents. As an only child I'd had to manage two years of huge diminishment back in Portugal and and menopause hit. You know, or perimenopause I suppose, which is a really challenging time. in the life of a woman, how can you begin to make sense, you know? You know, if you think about the Greek myth of Psyche, I was thrown out of the enchanted castle.

Catherine:
Hmm.

Maria:
And really I just wanted to drown. I had no words. I had no way of processing anything, no resources. from my old faith or the old expressions of faith other than pray harder, stick with it, repent. That was a big one. And just keep going.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. So the scaffolding had fallen off and you couldn't, but you still had faith in God?

Maria:
I did. Yes, that sense of God with me, particularly Jesus, never ever left me. and the spirit by then because I I had been experiencing the presence of the Trinitarian God more deeply. However, I felt that I needed to get to know them all over again It was like starting again, literally. And for that I had to start with silence. No words. I ran out of them

Catherine:
Yeah.

Maria:
Yeah.

Catherine:
Yeah. Knowing that God is not going to go away just because you don't have any words is quite good, isn't it? Yes.

Maria:
In my despair, I googled silent retreat, literally And this list came up and I found one that was reasonably close to where I lived and off I went. And it was based on the cloud of unknowing. And that was my first experience of contemplative spirituality. And that little book became like a guide to me to how I might reacquaint myself with this Trinitarian God I had followed all my life. But needed to get to know again. As me, rather than as something handed down to me.

Catherine:
Hm. You said that that half hour that you spent with the spiritual director shifted something really profoundly. So what was it? What was different?

Maria:
I was listened to and heard. The person I met with is Bridgie Waterfield. She was running. the retreat. She won't mind mention me mentioning her name. Uh a and she not only listened deeply, but then Offered me what she'd heard. And I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt understood. And that was the beginning of everything Yeah. There was a space for me. Yes. Which you hadn't found previously. Not fully. I've been very busy doing a lot of things for other people. And in the process, I there were bits of me, but all of a sudden in that half hour, it all kind of seemed to come together and gave me the courage. to begin to find for myself my God. Yeah.

Catherine:
Yeah. There's something very profound about that being listened to and that gives us permission to listen to ourselves, doesn't it? Yes. Exactly.

Maria:
I really did look back from then I got very busy. Of course I got very busy, Catherine. That's what I do, right? I did every course going. I I learned to meditate, I learned to lead meditation groups, and then through a period of a year going to Middleton Square to the church there, I filled in the gap, let's say between the end of the New Testament and the Reformation. And I discovered a wealth of wisdom and deep knowing. So basically I learnt about all these saints that my previous Protestant church had deemed unacceptable. And I embraced it and I found such learning and I found myself there.

Catherine:
Yeah. So there was an invitation in your scaffolding falling off from the divine into a very new place.

Maria:
Yes, there was. And I suppose the experience would be from an exterior support system to the beginnings of an interior support system. That still required the wisdom of the saints, my spiritual director my own mental faculties, all of that, but but it began to rebuild me from the inside.

Catherine:
Although your description is of of lots of you know, that that thing about the geezers and not having joined the dots, that there was more of you than you'd thought, kind of already built.

Maria:
Yes. And and actually the the other big external source of understanding was the Enneagram. My first encounter, I hated it. I just thought this was dreadful. I really didn't like it at all. But then Because I like to protest, I started to protest, you know, engage with it in a Protestant kind of way, protesting way, until I found what I was looking for. And it's actually a very spiritual tool which can get lost in the personality type discovery

Catherine:
Yeah, yeah. The external versus internal support system I think is really interesting 'cause there are spiritual streams which are very, very focused on doing the things kind of externally and that almost discourage, or not almost, do discourage a looking inwards because All of the answers are out there. So Jesus has got the answers, we just need to go and find them. And all of the doing needs to be out there. And you can't actually trust your own thoughts and feelings because they might lead you astray. Completely cannot trust your heart.

Maria:
The desires, your desires, if anything, need to be completely contradicted. Quite a bit of convincing for me to come out of that particular programming, I would say.

Catherine:
Yes. And contemplative spirituality sort of does the opposite, doesn't it? It invites us on a journey inwards. Yes.

Maria:
Yes. And I think now in some ways putting the two together I do have a sense of the best of both worlds because it's not just about a going inwards but it's going inwards to then find expression outwardly. So there is always an invitation to do, but it comes from a real sense of God's desire, united with one's desire, to turn up in the best version of yourself, then to for God to do what God does, which I still find And we'll always find a mystery.

Catherine:
Yeah. So it sounds like at this point that you've been able to sort of integrate the best of the first half of your faith journey with this new contemplative path. Yes.

Maria:
Yes, I have. And one of the lovely things that helped me to do that, God brought to my mind of very very powerful memory I had of when I was a teenager in those youth camps and we always began our mornings in silence. And I'd completely forgotten about this. And we were all gathered in you know, fifty or so young people, in a clearing in the middle of the the pine forest where the camp was in silence with our Bibles. Each were given each morning a little piece of paper with a few verses to read, and we were to find a tree and sit or stand or kneel by that tree and in complete silence for 15 minutes just read and sit And I remembered that that was my favorite part of the day. We were doing contemplation. We didn't have the langu I didn't have the language for it. And I found it was the thing that gave me so much life and set me up for the day. Not that quiet time of Bible study and intense prayer, but the just being with God. So having rediscovered that in memory, I just sort of then everything else could come in, I guess, and be renewed.

Catherine:
Yes. I wonder if you needed to be a bit cross with the tradition that you were coming out of in order to kind of enter into the new one or whether you did that integration sort of right from the beginning?

Maria:
Well, I wasn't cross to begin with because I was in a million bits. I I didn't have any energy to to feel anything, you know. I really didn't. I have been cross since. Not so much for for my story, but witnessing similar stories in other people whom I might accompany. And their stories are their stories, but I do get cross then for that particular programming I would call it. That is very difficult to undo, but I did overcome quite a lot of resistance in surprising ways. Was that resistance within yourself or resistance from others? Oh within myself, yeah. The programming is strong Uh I mean I give you a little story. I at one point uh part of my work life, I was working at International Students' House in central London and I was the PA to the chairman of ISH and he ran a little charity on the side that I also managed and I was at one point required to go and attend a very, very big Catholic meeting. Now remember I'd come out of the Catholic Church and I had never had anything to do. You know, Catholicism was the enemy when you are in that minority feeling persecuted state And I had to go. And they were charismatic Catholics. And it was the first time in about 30 years I had been with so many Catholics. And And they loved me, embraced me, welcomed me. I literally did none of my work because I was just in tears The whole day I just cried. I had to go back and say, I'm so sorry. But it was the moment of he deep, deep healing within me um that I couldn't have figured out, but God thought, right, that's the moment when this needs to happen. And this this is the story, you know, God finding these moments and inviting me into them to find freedom and a sense of trust, you know, moving from that fear to trusting the journey. Hmm.

Catherine:
That's a lovely phrase, trusting the journey. Do you want to just talk about that bit? What does that look like?

Maria:
Well, I think it's the essential things that, you know, bring us into spiritual direction, a sense of curiosity to begin with. and of inquiry. And then uh uh daring to show up to one's desires, trusting that one is not gonna kind of fall into complete disaster But that there is a wisdom there from God. In terms of the Enneagram, in the space that I inhabit, it was the movement from the question, what do I think, to what does God think? So in fear, I asked, what do I think? Because I had to manage it. I had to keep it going. I had to fix it, solve it, and move on. But when I began to vest into what does God think and connecting with that wisdom, that then opened me up Hmm.

Catherine:
So for people who might be listening to this and wondering what a more contemplative spirituality might add into their lives, what might be some good first steps to exploring that, do you think? Find a spiritual director, I would say.

Maria:
Although the work is an inner work, to have somebody to accompany you who is perhaps a little bit further down the line, who's got a bit of a toolkit that can suggest some prayer practices that might suit you. Because we're all different And so I can't say, well, just go and sit in silence for half an hour every day. Because for some people that will be torture But for a spiritual accompanier or spiritual director to get to know you, for me the first steps were Lexio Divina, because of the connection with scriptures. That's how it started. And there's I learned to meditate in that sort of contemplatio space and then took it from there. But I I do think it's about finding a spiritual director, somebody who gets to know you. and finds where the energy is and where the invitation is and then tailors the myriad of possibilities to where you are and particularly who you are

Catherine:
Yeah, yeah. Which comes back to that listening to what's going on within, doesn't it? Rather than being afraid of what's going on within 'cause it might be sinful. Because you've you've talked about desires. I'm just remembering that There must have been a listening to what was within that sent you on that silent retreat.

Maria:
I've run out of words.
I I I just didn't know how to pray.
And I thought, where do I go? You know, uh because everywhere I turned people would just tell me to pray more. I've prayed and look what's happened, look at my life. So I I had to find a a a way. I wasn't prepared to give up. on all that had been so precious to me, it was so vivid in me. But I had to find another way. Yeah.

Catherine:
How would you describe God now?

Maria:
I still have a very deep personal sense of who God is, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so that I pray. And I also nowadays have chats with Miriam, the mother of Jesus. Having done the spiritual exercises, one's bound to do that. So there is a re still a very personal connection But isn't a lot less about asking for things and much more about listening for things And beyond that, it's about the dance, the energetic dance of the Trinity, that we are invited to join in. And of course that echo, you know, of joy for me is so central and so that ups that feels so delightful. It's about God in me, but then me in God entering into that dance So that that's where I am and I dare say if we meet again in five years time I'll probably be somewhere else, but that's okay.

Catherine:
Yeah, and it just feels so appropriate that you talk about the energetic dance when your description of your life has had such energy in it all the way through.

Maria:
Yes. Yes it is. And you know one of the things that I have learnt as a spiritual director is that everybody comes with a kind of energy And it's often quite disordered. It's being managed by habits of heart and mind that often are not helpful And so the joy is not for everybody to join with my energy, but for them to discover their own, their own powerful way of connecting with the Trinitarian dance. which looks very different to to how I join, but is nevertheless as significant for them and as real and as transformative

Catherine:
Yeah, yeah. And the joy of this way of looking at things is that there is that invitation to find your own dance. It's not about somebody prescribing a dance for you. And you trying to twist yourself into it is about discovering the dance that is emerging from within. Which is lovely. It's beautiful.

Maria:
It's absolutely beautiful. And As a spiritual director, for me it's an absolute privilege and honour to witness and to be the keeper of those stories. that people bring where they then discover themselves and discover who they are in God and who God is in them

Catherine:
Yes. Yes, because all of those dances are so beautiful.

Maria:
And they all have very different rhythms and steps and ways of joining. But that's what keeps me on my toes and keeps me curious. and compassionate at the same time.

Catherine:
Yeah. Thank you so much. I wonder if it feels if there's anything unsaid.

Maria:
My journey has been one of connecting with trust, discovering trust. But maybe some some people listening, it's much more about rediscovering hope or rediscovering love. You know, uh the Apostle Paul talked about faith, hope and love. I call the the proper translation of the word faith is trust. So that wonderful sense of the invitation. So for me the main one is the trust. But maybe for somebody else it could be the hope, which is about vision, isn't it? Or love, which is about connection. But whatever it is I just hope that this will feel like a spacious invitation to go deeper into that, whatever it is.

Catherine:
That's wonderful. Thank you so much.

Maria:
You're very welcome.

Catherine:
Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Loved Called Gifted podcast. If you'd like to get in touch, you can email lovedcalledgifted at gmail. com You can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted. com and that's also the place to go if you're interested in the Loved Called Gifted course. Or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching. Thank you for listening.