Catherine:
Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted Podcast. This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose. I'm your host, Catherine Cowell. So I'm absolutely delighted to be joined today by Andrea Clark. Do you want to say hi Andrea and tell us who you are and where you are in the world?

Andrea:
Well, I'm Andrea Clark and I am in West Sussex, right next to the South Downs Way. So from the top of the hill behind the house I can see both the south coast, the seaside, and I'm also looking towards the hills as well and the beautiful South Downsway.

Catherine:
That sounds really beautiful. So we met on a boat. We did a catamaran.

Andrea:
Neither of us had been on a sailing holiday before, had we? Ever.

Catherine:
No, no, we hadn't. So we were rather fortunately treated to one.

Andrea:
I know.

Catherine:
So amazing.

Andrea:
I just keep remembering that beautiful blue sky and warm sea and that oh the sunshine was just tremendous.

Catherine:
Yes, yes.

Andrea:
But the thing that was brilliant was the fact that we didn't actually know beforehand who was going to be on the um the catamarantip we had no idea. So I rocked up to Gatwick with a bit of trepidation, thinking this is like some kind of strange Agatha Christie in which in which you got a group of people that you don't know turning up for something that you don't really know whether you're going to get on with it or not. Because I was really also thinking, I have no idea whether I'm going to get on with these people. whether I'm going to enjoy sailing, whether I'm going to be seasick the entire time, you know, far away am I going to be bitten to death by mosquitoes, you know, am I going to be I mean there was all this sort of dread thoughts and it was that strange thing of being at the departure gate at the airport thinking, what am I doing? But I'm just giving myself to this process. I'm in the hope that this is something that God is in. And sure enough that really m was the case.

Catherine:
Yes. So I thought it'd be really good to have a conversation because you announced fairly early on that Jesus had invited you to be part of his crack surrender squad. And that kind of evolved over the week rather preciously. So do you want to take us back to that moment when Jesus did invite you to be part of his crack surrender squad?

Andrea:
Well I'm gonna have to sort of qualify that a bit with like telling you a little bit about who I am. I am married, I have two grown-up children, one of whom is already married, one is very beautifully engaged and beautifully married So we're in that stage of life. I've been married to Andy now for 37 years. I am a managing director of a company where we provide residential care and supported living to adults that have learning disabilities. So my background and my kind of working life has been in nursing and then in social work, working with adults that have very challenging behaviour, learning disabilities as their primary diagnosis, but also mental health issues, complexes around the behaviors that that challenge and that sort of thing. So that's been my working life. I also, 25 years ago now I helped found a charity providing face-to-face counselling, telephone counselling, email, internet and play therapy for children and adults, anyone that's experienced an unwanted sexual experience, so sexual trauma. that sort of thing. So that's called Life Centre. So I helped to found that and I am now chair of trustees of that 25 years later, helping people to reclaim and be restored and to find hope in in the situation regardless of what has happened to them in their trauma. That's been a big part of my life. And then sort of the other part of my life is that I became a Christian or had a big revelation of who Jesus is back when I was probably around about 19 and I've been walking that journey of faith since that time. And I am now one of the core leaders, if you like, an elder of the church that I'm holding up, Revelation Church in Chichester, West Sussex, and for those people that might know, we were the church where we had the very first 24-7 prayer room and 24-7 prayer has now become a uh kind of global phenomena. So that's the backstory of who I am. I've been incredibly busy all of my life. I'm a busy person. I like having a lot of plates to spend I'm the sort of person that the busier that I am, the more I seem to sort of end up picking up more and more things. Until the point that I'm juggling so much I can't remember what day it is, who I am what I am, what hat I'm wearing, you know, what I'm supposed to be doing. And in the midst of all this, we've had a good couple of years of looking after my husband's parents Who both very sadly died within six months of each other last year. They very much didn't want to go into care. They very much wanted to be at home. They wanted as little input from anybody outside they're quite private people and my husband's an only child and so that was quite a thing of juggling all the other things I'm juggling but also juggling that really profound thing of of caring for very elderly people in their final years of life and doing that in a in a way that is respecting what they want and their wishes but also holding on to your own frustrations and you know kind of and the fact that they were phoning day and night and we did eventually manage at the final moments to have some carers in, but certainly not wraparound care by any means. By the time we'd got to the end of it, we were exhausted. Knowing that we'd done the right thing, but exhausted. And it was in the backdrop of that that I was then offered the opportunity of the fabulous sailing opportunity and I was just so bowled over by the generosity and the how lovely the idea of just getting away. I'll go anywhere. Just take me away And and it really was one of those kind of like just side yeah, doesn't matter what it is, just just take me away. Sail me away And so literally the night before going and I was really like, Lord, I haven't really prepared for this. I don't really feel prepared other than obviously I I packed my little bag. But I really am unprepared. And in the midst of that, we had a worship evening that we have once a month that's a beautiful, contemplative, reflective space. And it's a sort of Come as you are, space. And people genuinely do. You know, you you wander in with your with your mug of tea and you sit down and you just allow the music to wash over you until we allow the presence of the Holy Spirit to soothe you rock you cleanse you enable you to be encouraged and wrapped in in love and that's the kind of space that we try to in encourage and in the midst of that I felt so strongly the Holy Spirit inviting me, or Jesus inviting me, I want you, Andrea, to be part of a crack surrender squad. And that's so like wait cracks surrender scored and uh I mean I'm quite a cheeky sort of person. I I love a lot and and the idea of the the the sort of juxtaposition of that that usually you're a a cracksword that's going in and doing you know you've trained hard to do all these very important special things but this is something entirely different This is a crack surrender squad. And I opened myself to that to say, Lords, whatever that means, I am willing to let go. of all of the titles and all of the stuff and all of the responsibilities and all of the trappings and all of the other stuff, or the expectation of other people and also to be honest, the expectation of myself to be responsible and good and you know do my job well and you all of those things. I'm going to choose to let all of that go and surrender. to the one he loves me. And so I arrived at Gat Rick, as to say, to meet people that I didn't know to suddenly go, this is this is part of this. This is part of just surrendering. I'm gonna surrender control. I'm not even gonna have my feet on firm ground. I'm going to be slightly rocked at all times and I am going to go into this wholeheartedly because I believe that this is where I can find the peace and the healing and the restoration that I need for this time.

Catherine:
So when you first described, kind of at the beginning of the trip, being invited into the Crack Surrender Squad It still sounded fairly activist. So I remember you saying that you felt that this was about surrendering to all of the things that God had called you to. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think the word surrender within a sort of Christian cultural context often has quite a duteous feel about it

Andrea:
Yeah, you're you're absolutely right. You know, when I was first considering it and we really we'd met sort of within twenty-four hours of me kind of hearing that. I was still feeling quite, what does this really mean? How can I do this? What does that actually require of me? That sort of activist kind of thing. I am going to be a part of a crack surrender squad. And I think in a in a way it is surrendering to all that I'm called to, not giving all of that up, but basically saying I don't have control of that. Because I think, you know, we can hold on to those labels that we've maybe given all those prophetic words that we've been given, all those senses of where we are called and what we should be doing. Certainly if you are an a an activist type of person, you know, you start to kind of go, oh that means this and I need to do this training and I need to be that and I ought to be on this course and I ought to do that. And we start to add, add, add and load onto that calling a whole load of other external stuff. But actually, I think for me, I was like an awareness of I need to strip all of that back. Yes. Yeah. Go back to the initial core, core, the heart of what it really is all about to be called by God and chosen and named. and those sorts of things. The surrendering was being able to just go, I'm going to strip that back to the very part of what it is. Going to go back to the beginning. And I started to ponder the idea of going back to factory settings. We're all very great tech, aren't we? And and things go wrong all the time and we're told, aren't we? You know, have you tried turning it on and off again and all that? And we don't do that with ourselves. I I think we struggle to do that because we're so on, you know, I need to be on, I need to be on. But why haven't we turned ourselves off and on again. Why haven't we gone back to factory settings, got rid of all of that junk, all of that add-ons, all of the, you know, all of that other stuff? Go back to the way it's supposed to be. Strip it right back to the way that God created us, called us to be at the very beginning. And so I think really for me in that place of lots of stuff and lots of plate spinning and exhaustion and the physical exhaustion of not having had much sleep and you know, all of those sorts of things. And the and the grief and the all of the mixed emotions of different things. It was that, okay, I'm going to go right back to the heart, go right back to the beginning and consider what that call is.

Catherine:
Yeah, you found the thing that you wrote.

Andrea:
Yeah, so when I'd heard that about crack surrender squad and whatever, I this is what I wrote that night. Take me back to factory settings, back to the way that you made me to be. Take me back to factory settings, back to the time where I could be free. Free to walk and talk with you face to face, a time before all the smart programs and add-on functions to call the space. I want a reset, a return to the safety of how it was in the very beginning, the Garden of Eden, before the viruses and Trojan horses polluted my operating system and clouded my mind. Take me back to factory settings, back to the way that you made me to be. I want an upgrade to hear with clarity and see with certainty, to follow more closely, tracking each step. But first take me back to factory settings and make me ready to be. Wonderful.

Catherine:
Thank you very much. What are the elements of what a Christian view of what surrender might be? Did you need to surrender in order to understand what it was really going to be like to be part of God's crack surrender squad?

Andrea:
Well, I think the key element being that he created me, that I have been fearfully and wonderfully made. The perfection of God's love as a parent, as a mother and father to me is that I don't need to fit into a family in a dynamic, and by which I mean. You know, all of us, we're born into whatever we're born into. And then we sort of have to fit into that family, don't we? And we find our place and we jostle for position, depending on whether you're firstborn, secondborn, thirdborn, you know, what up, one of 25, you know, whatever. we find our way, we get labelled then quite early on, you know, you're the good one, you're the you're the responsible one, you're the cheeky one, you're the f you know, all all all of those and the slight disappointment you're actually for the family. We all there's there's there's various different labels that we all come under. And I think for me it's stripping all of those things back and saying actually what does it mean to be a loved daughter where there isn't that expectation, where there's not an expectation of me to achieve There's not an expectation of me to smooth everything over and make things okay for my parents There isn't an expectation for me to get qualifications or to not be naughty, to be quiet, to be more like this person or less like that person or you know those sorts of things that we begin to just load onto ourselves. I think if you we begin to strip that back, you begin to think I was born enough. I was born enough. That physical imperfections, the stuff that we can end up struggling with, That wasn't the way that I've been created. Now I am well aware of my imperfections But my God, the one who created me created me enough.

Catherine:
Yes.

Andrea:
Yeah. So it's going back to that, surrendering to what the world has put on me, what expectation I've also put on myself, and surrendering to all of that, going back to factory settings of the way I was made in the factory. And the way I am perceived by my loving God is enough. Yeah, yeah.

Catherine:
There is often a sense, isn't there, that surrender means giving up who we are in order to, as you say, fit into the family. And what you're saying is that this is absolutely the opposite of that

Andrea:
Yeah, you can take surrender as being right, I surrender, I'm gonna run off and go and hide myself and never be seen again by anybody and never actually do or achieve anything But that in itself would be a bit ridiculous because, you know, and I would also be deeply unhappy because I am in my happy place when I am part of a team and doing stuff that you know and choosing to be actively involved in things and making a difference and all of that. I love that. That's my bread and butter. That's my whole thing that makes me smile and joyful and and all of that being being part of things. If I was told, you know, you'd surrender and that meant therefore go and be quiet in a corner. That'd be utter, utter punishment. I mean it'd be horrific. I don't think I couldn't think of anything worse. I mean I I can see for some people if they were told no, no, surrender and go and whatever, if you're a natural introvert and you know you'd like nothing better than to be On your own, that might for some people be marvellous, but for me that would just be sheer hell. But I think it's more the surrendering to being able to choose this. not feel like it's been forced on me. I choose the roles I have, I choose the the the interactions I have, I choose the in expectation I have. I'm not victim to it. It is if you come from a place of feeling that you have surrendered all of that external expectation. And obviously there are always going to be external expectations, but it didn't do my job. won't get paid. But yes, you know, whatever. However, it's choosing that, isn't it? It's not being victim to it and not feeling like you're you're trapped in it in in in some sort of way. And I, you know, I think that we put expectations on one another because of the expectations that we put on ourselves. That has also informed me as well of how I then perceive other people and the choices that they're making. And I think actually, in some ways, as I've begun to think like this, it's made me be able to be kinder and less judgmental.

Catherine:
That's really interesting. So effectively you did have sort of a fortnight of being turned off and turned back on again. Because I was absolutely away from all of those expectations. Yeah. And I wonder what you noticed was happening within you in that time and what of that you've kind of carried with you.

Andrea:
Well, I noticed, I think really very early on that the whole thing of being rocked, and it's difficult to kind of. explain it, but it felt like a very room-like experience. So there was a sort of somatic thing that was going on as much as anything. It was I was being rocked like a baby and I'm a 58-year-old woman. So every night as I was going to sleep, I was being rocked like a baby. And I think I took on that comfort. I took on that feeling of safety. Even though, you know, logically I was not safe, you know. Yeah, you know A catamaran, as glamorous as it might sound, you and I now know, is essentially a portal on the water.

Catherine:
Yes It's a caravan, isn't it really? It's a caravan. It's a very, very nice caravan. It's a caravan.

Andrea:
Not the caravan, but yes Yeah, exactly. It's a it's a it's a yeah, it's a a glamorous caravan holiday on the water with the portal. The views are beautiful out of the rain is warmer. But I I took on Just because of that, feeling safe and comforted and a babe in arms. So that really helped with the whole going back to factory settings thing, I I guess. And I embraced that and I also embraced the opportunity for creativity. I probably had forgotten how much I enjoy Journaling and writing poetry and expressing myself in that way. And I had the opportunity because I didn't have all of the other things to do that. And so that has been a real, a real joy to me, sort of rediscovering my my joy of that. And I mean going snorkeling, which I'd never done before. and seeing these beautiful gardens, I mean glorious gardens of shape and colour and texture and seeing these beautiful fish interacting with this world that's below the surface that I had not seen before. I think it was like a sort of childlike experience, that whole kind of thing of releasing yourself to be able to play and wonder and and I I mean I love nature. I love going out on walks in the countryside and and that's been a joy for me over several years and I do regularly go on pilgrimages and that and having that opportunity to walk and talk but also to walk in utter silence and to go to beautiful places and just enjoy the glory of God's creation and and and to see that and to allow that to soak me in and uh allow God to speak to me through. nature has been really important to me. But I think particularly this because it was such a different experience. I allowed myself to to be like a child in it, I guess, as well. And so And so that was again all of that thing of surrendering, of like unpacking, going back to factory settings and saying, this is what I want. I want to be authentically me, the Andrea that I was created to be.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah, which is really beautiful. I I wonder if it has changed your practice, the way that you've done life since. Have there been shifts?

Andrea:
I think it has made me go slower. Is productivity down? No. However, there's a shift in me of knowing that it's not all up to me. And I think that stress point that I know that I would get myself into a feeling somehow I've got to do everything, I'm less concerned for that now. Also, I mean in my in my daily practice, I love, you know, getting up, taking my cup of tea to my armchair, and you know, reading my Bible. spending some time with guards. I love, you know, every day I walk the dog and while I'm doing so I stick my earphones in and I listen to worship music and I just let myself be. And I think that that's it. And just clothe shutting down, I think, from the external stuff and not being like a hamster on a treadmill. not needing to be part of things quite as much as I did, being able to just let other people take things on if they want to. and being maybe a little more strategic in what I do say yes to, not just constantly, oh yeah, I can do that, I can do that. So just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Catherine:
Yeah. You wrote a really brilliant piece about some of the things that you're not called to do, and I wonder if you happen to have that around to share.

Andrea:
It is not my responsibility to be the universal fixer, creative solutions machine, chief cook and bottle washer. Filter, filler of gaps, comforter, protector, cash machine, sucker-upper, diplomat, bridge builder, saver of souls. It is my responsibility to be Andrea, to be loved and to love, to draw close to God and keep pace with God's love. Ultimately, people, creatures, organizations that I choose to be involved with are primarily God's responsibility. If I choose to remain involved, it is so that I can be a participant and an element in the process. Only God is the capstone, the linchpin, the catalyst. Only God is the author and perfecter. This is a paradigm shift. I'm not naughty. Unkind, unfeeling, lazy, if I don't take on the burden of other people or organizations. I am not out of step or contrary to the call of God on my life, if I release my grip and let go of the reins. I'm not giving up, but giving in. To a greater love. I have no need of titles or qualifications or position or platform or fame or fortune. I am entirely content to be who I am, loved by the one who knew me in my mother's womb. Who rocked me and held me, wooed me and whispered to me, I am Andrea, beloved daughter, and that is just enough.

Catherine:
That is really beautiful. Thank you very much.

Andrea:
Thank you.

Catherine:
It's a subtle but absolutely profound shift, isn't it? From doing the things and holding the responsibility for all of it, that kind of sense of duty, and I must and I ought to and I should, to an activism which surrenders the responsibility and the weight I don't have to be the cash machine for everybody else. There's that bit that Paul Paul says there's two things which are both kind of opposite but equally true, that we should all carry one another's burdens. But everybody will carry their own burden.

Andrea:
Yes, it is that thing of over-responsibility, feeling over-responsible. We know that the greatest love is to lay down your life But that does not mean, because obviously we're not all called to martyrsdom in that in that situation. Thankfully, yes. That does not mean that in my day-to-day I have to be the martyr. I'm not surrendering in order to be like breastfeeding to everybody. And it's about time that instead of just, you know, here it is, just, you know, suck the life force out of me, that actually it is about time be self-protective in a good way. Let's put on that that Boudicca breastplate that says, I love you, I care for you, I am soft-hearted, but I no longer breastfeed you. That's not what it's about at all. I am surrendering to God because I know that he can be trusted. So surrender doesn't mean I become a doormat. Surrender doesn't mean that I become kind of so involved in everybody else's life that I have no time for myself. Surrender doesn't mean any of those sorts of things. also the idea that if you're going to be part of a crack surrender squad, you also need to recruit people to the squad. It's a squad. It's not just a lone alone journey. I'm not a crack surrender hermit I'm yeah, so there is an activism in it in that I want to woo people and encourage people To also join this squad that is ultimately life-giving, freeing, empowering, wonderful, because we are being drawn into the love of God.

Catherine:
So what is the motto of the Crack Surrender Squad? If people are thinking I'd quite like to join this. Gosh, that is a really good question. I think here I am. I am enough. And does it have a shield, kind of a like this Boudicca breastplate? Does it have kind of emblems on it?

Andrea:
I think it might be different for different people. And I think each of us know what we're surrendering. I mean, I know full well When I came to Christ, what I was surrendering. You know what the stuff was that when I was baptized that I was laying down and what I was dying to and what I was being born again in. So I think, you know, probably for different people it may well be different things. And they may be different things for different seasons as well, because I think the surrendering is not a one-time thing in the same way that our our walk, our journey with God is not a one-time thing. It's a constant choice. It's a It's um, I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved. It's that journey of many choices, of daily choices, of moment-by-moment choices, of the reconnection with God every time we we are. Here I am. And I think maybe these that just that word surrender.

Catherine:
One of the things that excites me about this conversation is that quite often when there are conversations about sort of being versus doing and not being so kind of caught up with the things that other people are expecting of us. There you can have this image of Well needing to go and sit in your rose garden with a candle. You you know what I mean? Yeah. And for so many people Uh if you're naturally active and busy and that's what gives you life and part of what you're bringing to the world is a kind of an energy and a creativity and an ability to to spin several plates at once, then then that also is part of who you are. And there's so this kind of internal shift is really subtle, isn't it?

Andrea:
Yeah, it's exactly that because if we genuinely believe that we have been created by a loving God who has made us the way that we are, then why are we thinking that the way that we are, the unique way that we are, the unique way that that we interact and the, you know, the things that we love and whatever, that must also be part of what he's created. Yes. You know, for some people that may well be that their joy and their happy place is sitting in a rose garden. with a with a candle or or whatever. But for other people it may well be being on their bike or being in a crowd or g cheering on their football team or, you know, what whatever it is. Again, it's surrendering to being who we are and knowing that that we are enough. You know, that outside of sin obviously doing something is Really, you know, not helpful. You know, let let's just embrace who we are as individuals and the unique way that we've been that we've been put together, our unique personalities, and and know that He's not disappointed with us because he doesn't have any illusions. And I say he a lot because that's obviously the paradigm in which I have been kind of shaped. But God is not disappointed with us because he doesn't have illusions.

Catherine:
But does have so much love and delight and joy in us. Exactly. Exactly.

Andrea:
Being transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you're not hearing the voices of other people's expectations, not hearing the voices of the the the comparison thing that that so often is a curse to us, but surrendering to the one that loves us for who we are because we're enough.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. I I wonder if there's anything else that you feel it would be good to add.

Andrea:
So surrendering can sometimes bring up stuff. from the past. And that's if that starts to happen, if that starts to bubble up, then it's really, really good to do that. handholding somebody who who can help shape that journey.

Catherine:
Yeah. I I think it's a really good observation because it occurs to me as you're speaking that actually Other people's expectations and what we imagine God's expectations are of us can be a bit of a defense mechanism against actually working out what it is that we want. Because once you're working out what you want and who you are, that requires a little bit of going inside, and that doesn't always feel like a safe Place to go.

Andrea:
And I think I'm gonna be real as well about the fact that a lot of people's interactions within church, certainly over the last few decades. May have been, and this is not in all church context at all, but may have been one of experiencing quite heavy shepherding quite heavy control. You know, expectations that have led people to feel tracked. into making choices that they perhaps wouldn't have chosen and and and I think very good people sometimes find themselves being channelled i in ways that when they look at it years later they think, gosh, was that really helpful to me and has that actually caused me more pain and difficulty? And I think we need to own that has not necessarily come from a bad or malevolent place, but that that sometimes has been the way that that things have been explained or expressed, certainly from the front, if you like, and that people have taken on that thing of needing to be a certain thing. And and, you know, we're used to talking about this in terms of, you know, women, women's rights, you know, whatever, expectations on us as women, you know, misogyny within workplaces, misogyny within churches with y within those sorts of things. But I think that the sort of control or the kind of heavy shepherding that has happened within some Christian contexts. has led people to feeling trapped and is in some circumstances. And so the idea of surrender may actually feel quite frightening, worrying, concerning for some people.

Catherine:
I'm aware that heavy shepherding is is a term that not everybody will have come across.

Andrea:
No, exactly. And what I mean by that is, you know, a a a controlling person, a pastoral control that says, you must do this. You must do that. You are not a good Christian if you are not doing this. You are not a good Christian if you are not doing this. If you want to be part of this, church, if you want to be part of this group, then you need to be doing this. That's what I mean. The idea of a good shepherd is one that obviously tends the flock and would go after the the lost sheep and would you know be looking after, protecting, encouraging, feeding, all of that. But the idea of a heavy shepherd is one who does not let the flock grazed beautifully across the pasture, but that rather keeps them cooped in a pen. And gives them an awful lot of jobs to do quite often. Exactly. And yeah, exactly. And and and is not necessarily as kind understanding when life circumstances happen, which means that the person cannot spin all the plates, cannot any longer be involved in all of the different things and et cetera, et cetera.

Catherine:
And is selling the idea that actually surrender is about surrender to God. And I'm God's representative. However, whether I say this directly or imply it heavily and so surrender is about giving up of yourself in order to follow somebody else's expectations. But that doing that is a holy and a Christian thing to do.

Andrea:
Yeah, and spinning that in such a way that it that it it sort of gaslights the person into believing that they must do this to the detriment of themselves. And going back to what I was saying about martyring yourself with the cause and all of that kind of thing, there is a sense in which we sing the songs and we say It's all for you, Lord, but that also doesn't mean that the squeeze has should be put on by other people.

Catherine:
Yeah. The trouble with that when when it is or when we kind of get this impression that it is is that we imagine that the squeeze is being put on by God. Yeah. And that our Christian duty, our duty to Jesus is to comply with that and to surrender to it. And what happens then is we become very outward focused because you sort of have to ignore what's going on within in order to comply and so you lose touch with what you described as factory settings and and where you're coming from. And who you are and who you were created to be.

Andrea:
Yeah. So that also is part of my thinking as well, is that how we reframe those things, how we enable ourselves to be kinder to one another.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yes, you said that you found yourself able to be kinder to people.

Andrea:
Yeah, I think so. If I have a certain set of expectations for myself, I need to own they are my own expectations and they are not expectations that I should or could. put on other people. I think it's enabled me to be kinder, to allow people to have uh the dignity of their own choices.

Catherine:
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because we know ourselves that actually you we're talking about this being quite an internal It's an internal journey and the subtleties are internal and it's hard enough to work out what's going on within us without expecting that we ought to know what's going on in Mabel next door and Exactly.

Andrea:
And well, you know, Mabel Nextdoor, I am I'm not going to know the fullness of Mabel next door, even if we have a million cups of coffee together. I you know, I'm still not going to know them the the fullness of of of Mabel because only she'll know that. We try to be you know open to one another sometimes, not always, but we try to be But even in doing that, we're never really going to be fully open. And even with our nearest and dearest, we're never going to be fully open because only really God knows the fullness of of who we are.

Catherine:
And actually Mabel next door doesn't know the f entirely know the fullness of who Mabel next door is, just as Andrea Clarke doesn't know the entirety of Andrea Exactly.

Andrea:
And I'm blind to so many things of myself, but it's probably just as well.

Catherine:
Quite often I kind of think, oh gosh. This is a thing about me that I'd lost sight of or that I'd not particularly noticed. Or I'm growing into this. thing and actually I quite like it or I'm enjoying that or I wouldn't have guessed. Th there is this Jewish thing about every person being a universe in themselves.

Andrea:
Yeah.

Catherine:
And we really are, you know, your inner landscape is incredible.

Andrea:
Indeed, you're absolutely right. The trouble is though that when you start to say things like that, I start to think about the microbiome.

Catherine:
So, Well that was quite mad too. Are you drinking kaffir, Andrea?
So we live in an incredible complex world and we are incredible complex beautifully made, individuals.

Andrea:
Yes.

Catherine:
Thank you so so much.

Andrea:
Lovely to chat to you. Thank you.

[Music]
Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Loved Call Gifted Podcast. If you'd like to get in touch, you can email lovedcalledgifted@gmail. com. You can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted.com. And that's also the place to go if you're interested in the Loved Called Gifted course. Or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching, thank you for listening.