Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted podcast.

This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose.

I'm your host, Catherine Cowell.

So I'm really chuffed to be joined by Heidi Steele for the second time on the podcast.

For those people who didn't hear you last time, Heidi from Live Play Learn, would you like to introduce yourself?

Yeah, hello.

It's lovely to be back.

My name is Heidi Steele.

Amongst other things, I am an unschooling parent to four always unschooled children.

And we did talk a little bit on the previous one about what unschooling is, but it's a kind of style of home educating.

So my children have never been to school.

And very briefly, one of the reasons that we chose to unschool and home educate our children was because of my experience and background as a former teacher.

So I've always been very interested in education and how children learn.

And that is how we ended up where we are.

My children are now aged 18, 16, 13 and 10.

Yeah, so we've been doing this a long time now.

Yes.

And am I right in saying that there are elements of neurodiversity within your family?

Yes, you would be very right in saying that.

It became apparent, or I don't know when it became really apparent, because of the lifestyle that we led, my children weren't put into the school situation, which quite often pressurizes children and particularly neurodivergent children to behave in ways that isn't in line with how they feel comfortable and how they want to express themselves.

And so those things, those idiosyncrasies can become very obvious in that environment.

And so I think it took us a little bit longer to realize that that was coming into play.

For example, my children weren't required at the age of four to sit still with their hands on their lap and face the front and make eye contact and look like they were listening and learning.

They were still busy playing on the beach and climbing trees.

And so the environment that they were in really suited them.

And so it took a long while for us to realize that there was neurodivergence in play.

And then, so two of my children have got official diagnosis, two of my children haven't, but I'm absolutely certain they could if that becomes something they want to pursue or something that is needed for any reason.

So yeah, we've got quite the collection of neurodivergences between us, definitely autistic, ADHD, PDA, we've got sensory issues, preferences going on, language development.

And comorbid health conditions as well.

So we've got quite the complex array of things going on within our family.

So it really strikes me that it's been very fortunate for your children and for you actually, that you made this decision to go with unschooling.

And that has really, I remember from our previous conversation, that's really enabled you to create an environment and create a learning environment that has been very much naturally shaped around who they are, rather than who other people think they ought to be.

So quite a lot of the battles that some people would have had with all of the stresses of trying to support a child who doesn't fit into the education system, to fit into the education system, a lot of that you've not needed to do, which is lovely.

It is absolutely lovely.

And I work with so many families, particularly post pandemic, where it became apparent that actually their children were happier at home.

And I work with a lot of families that that's their story.

Their story is that school really had a very negative impact on their children in one way or another, anything from just losing a spark in their eyes to what we now call emotional based school refusal, but absolutely anxiety really high and causing real distress for the children and therefore for the family as well.

And then navigating the lack of support or the ill informed support within a lot of school settings, which is sad.

So I am ever so aware that we made the decision before we knew that could have been my story very easily.

And I am very fortunate, but I'm very aware that it happens to a lot of families and a lot of families don't choose to home educate either.

It's kind of the end of the line, and they feel like they've kind of been forced into it because of lack of options.

My hope for everybody that finds themselves in that position is that they will find an enormous amount of support from the home educating community because there is enormous amounts of support out there.

And that in time it will be something that they will choose because they will see how amazing it is.

That's my hope.

Yes, yeah.

I only did a little short amount of home education, but I would say that actually the homemade community, even for the sort of 10 minutes that I was doing it with my oldest son was beautiful.

Really, really, really, really lovely.

We met some fantastic people.

So it's a nice world to end up in, even if you haven't particularly chosen it.

Yeah, definitely.

So the thing that made me think it'd be really good to chat again, Heidi, is that you used a phrase when we spoke last time that really struck me.

You talked about unschooling ourselves, which struck me as really interesting.

And I thought that that might be something which would be helpful both to people who are thinking about the unschooling journey, but I also wondered what applicability that might have to people generally in their lives.

Yes.

So tell me, how would you define this idea of unschooling ourselves?

I would define it as us as the adults being really open to questioning things that we've always held to be true.

So when we look at it in terms of linking it to unschooling, that's kind of our starting point in terms of looking at education and things that we have been told are true about how children learn and what children need to learn and how they need to go about it and when they need to go about it.

So even there, that's the starting point with schooling.

But in terms of opening that up, once we start on that journey of just curiosity and saying, well, hang on a minute, what else might not be 100% true that I have held to be true without even thinking about it?

There's so much of what we believe to be true isn't necessarily stuff that we've been explicitly taught.

It's just our life experience.

And so we just replicate what we are familiar with and what we know and what society at large, so in education that's school, does.

And we just kind of fall into a pattern of that's how we do things.

So it's really opening up ourselves, following this curiosity and questioning.

Yeah, it can be about anything, which is why I was excited when you say, oh, how can that be applicable?

Because you can kind of start anywhere, like wherever you're and whatever it is that you're doing, that can be your starting point.

But for so many people I work with, it's school and the education system.

MS.

So if you go back to the beginning of your unschooling journey as a parent, I know that you started off in education.

So what were the things that you needed to do in terms of unschooling yourself that enabled you to then journey with your children?

Or I'm guessing that probably the two kind of came together.

MS.

Yeah, because one of the things that happens when you're unschooling is your children very much and very quickly get a grip of what's going on, because it's kind of really natural to them.

Really children don't want to sit down for six hours a day at a desk when you're four or five years old.

Arguably, there isn't many an adult that doesn't or don't want to do that.

And equally, there are some that do.

But actually developmentally, that's not what children are designed to do.

And so they very quickly can move into sitting on the carpet and playing with trains or climbing trees or going to play at the park.

And it's quite natural for them.

But in that is where the challenge comes for the adult.

So the children are very rapidly understanding that they're happy doing those things and not doing workbooks and curriculums.

And so very quickly, the adults are challenged by what their children are doing.

And that is really the starting point.

For me, I knew that I had a very strong sense based on my teaching experience that my children were going to continue to learn through play, and that we weren't going to deliberately introduce workbooks or expectations about reading and how much they should be reading a day or writing or maths.

But the challenge for me came when that continued kind of beyond the age of seven, because I kind of had this idea that at some point, the things that they wanted to do would look like school.

So the challenge for me came when it didn't.

And it also came when they did express an interest in things, but they didn't want me to turn it into a project.

So I was all up for my son in particular was interested in the film Cars, which probably is a long time ago now, but people might remember Lightning McQueen.

He was very interested in that.

And we bought a few toys and we got some big boxes and made the vehicles and they played in them.

But for the most part, it didn't look like I thought it was going to look like he didn't want to sit and color pictures of Cars.

He didn't want to make up stories.

He didn't want to read the books that we'd got about Cars.

And there was always this sense that he never really finished anything that we started.

And that was a real challenge for me.

I remember that being a challenge.

Like if he was in school, he'd have to finish this project.

Is he ever going to finish anything in his life ever?

I can remember getting really stressed about it.

And then my other son, he taught me a really, a really, really good lesson.

He can't sit still.

So you won't be surprised to know he has an ADHD diagnosis.

He can't sit still.

And we used to go to some kind of science-orientated workshops and they were in somebody's garden.

So it was outside.

It was the summer.

It was lovely.

It was spacious.

The guy who was leading it was amazing, very engaging, didn't mind the children kind of calling out and asking questions all the time.

And he really responded very well to home-educated children.

And my son was at the end of the garden up a tree.

And I was like, what are we doing here?

Because he's not paying any attention whatsoever.

Like this is, what are we doing here?

I mean, I had four children, so I was obviously there, not just for the one up a tree.

So we kept going back.

And then one week he came home and he was telling his dad all about what everybody else had been doing in this science-orientated activity session.

And that was a real lesson to me because I thought it looked, I mean, it looks so far from you are concentrating or paying any attention to this.

I mean, it wasn't like he was even in the same space as everybody else.

He was, I mean, he was in the garden, but he was very separated from everybody else.

And he'd got it all.

He could explain all of it.

And he was really enthusiastic about it.

And I thought, yeah, that was a real lesson, a real lesson for me in terms of how he was able to access that because he was allowed to be up a tree and upside down.

If he had been sat with the others and made to look like he was concentrating, actually he wouldn't have been able to take that information in because he would have been concentrating so hard and being sitting still and putting all his energy and effort into making it look like he was paying attention, but actually he wouldn't have been able to engage in that at all.

I think those are kind of examples of where it started for me.

They're my starting points.

Yes.

So despite the fact that you were going into this very creative, very child-led way of living life and doing parenting and doing education, and despite the fact that you were going into it with a great determination to follow your children's lead and to allow them to be themselves, it's really interesting that you were still sort of carrying these sort of ideas and concepts with you from, I guess, from society and from the way we're expected to do things.

Yeah, it's interesting that you've mentioned parenting as well because that very, very quickly changed.

When my second was born, he was very, very different as a child to my first and we were already kind of set on a path of considering how we were parenting and what was actually going to, I was going to say what was going to work, but it wasn't what was going to work for us.

It was what actually felt right and felt like good choices for us.

And they were very different to some of the ideas that other parents have and how other parents parent.

So part of the unschooling of yourself is going to be in order that you can create this environment for your children without it being polluted by the expectations of society that you're kind of subconsciously carrying with you.

I think one of the things that really interests me about this idea of unschooling ourselves is that the way that we manage ourselves is also really influenced by our kind of societal expectations that we are kind of carrying with us.

So I am imagining, and tell me if I'm wrong, that part of the reason you wanted your kids to do a project that they finished is that that would have given you a certain amount of kind of internal kudos.

You know, I could, and you could even show the grandparents who are kind of saying, I don't know what you're up to.

Can they read yet?

Do they know what fractions are?

That you could say, look, we've done this project, or look, he started his own small business and he knows because...

And if somebody's not finishing a project, then you haven't got that to sort of take with you.

So I'm guessing that part of the unschooling yourself is in order to create an environment for the kids.

You're nodding, so I'm guessing I'm not too far off.

Yeah, you're not too far off the point at all.

No.

Because unschooling can go either way because it's so much responsive to your child.

There are unschooling families whose children learn to read at the age of three, whereas my eldest three children didn't learn to read till they were 12.

And then my youngest child learned when she was eight.

So you can imagine like the first 12 years, my eldest hadn't learned to read.

And we had that question from my grandparents almost every time that we saw them.

But that was one of the questions.

Oh, how's the reading going?

And it was like, well, we're doing other things instead because that's not something that's...

It hasn't come up yet.

Yes, it hasn't happened yet.

What fascinates me, I mean, for different reasons, both of my two, they're now 17 and 19, but both of them really, really struggled in the school system.

And for many years, I couldn't...

I'd not really got good evidence that either of them were literate.

But now, I see them on their phones, I see them reading stuff.

One of my boys has used AI to kind of create romantic messages, but he can read them.

And it's like, this is really, really interesting.

And my oldest has done a theory tests for driving lorries and coaches.

And these involve some really quite technical language and he can read it.

And I don't quite understand how we got to that, but we did.

So absolute kudos to you for kind of holding your nerve.

Yeah, there's a lot of holding your nerve in unschooling.

And I mean, I talked about home-ed community at the beginning and having like unschooling community is really important.

I think it's invaluable because you're going to be in a space with people that have got children that are older.

So you've got people that have got the experience that they can share.

But also, you're surrounded by people who kind of understand what it is that you're doing and how it is that you're doing it.

So it's a really lovely place to bring those unschooling ourselves questions when we're the ones that are being challenged by our child not being able to read or not finishing a project or being up a tree or not wanting to leave the house or not knowing their fractions.

We've never explicitly taught fractions, but we're a family of six.

We have talked about how to fairly cut up a cake and what that looks like.

And if someone has two slices, well, then they've got two six and that's the same as a third.

So we've kind of had those conversations and money, lots of fractions around money, how we're going to share that equally.

So it does come up, but you don't have like a set lesson on a set day.

And the examples you gave there about your sons and what they're doing now in terms of their literacy and the examples you've gave are both driven by things they want to do, which is really key in unschooling that our children are driven by the things that they want to do.

And when we engage in something that we want to do, the learning is really meaningful.

It has meaning to us and it's much easier to learn.

So that technical language that your son is using, to him, that's absolutely what he's driven by.

And therefore it's like when young children know all the names of the dinosaurs when they're four, you know, they can't spell what or play or and, but they can have a good stab at diplodocus, you know, it's because it has meaning for them.

They're really interested in it.

So the other side of the unschooling ourselves that really interests me is thinking about how that has changed your relationship with yourself and the way that you are in the world and the way that you are with yourself.

Yeah, a massive change.

So this is more related, I think, to the parent inside, like the way that we relate with our children and the way that we treat our children and parent our children.

We look at their behaviours and we look at their behaviours as communication.

We don't look at their behaviours as something that we have to praise and reward this good stuff and then correct and maybe punish the bad stuff.

But actually to look at their behaviours as communication and look at it like it's telling us something that they're distressed in this situation or they find or they found something today really hard or they're overwhelmed and actually to respond to that with kindness and compassion and to help them co-regulate.

So we do a lot of co-regulating and to help them as they get older be more reflective about maybe the situation that they were in and what could we do next time that would help them navigate the same situation.

So like all those things but actually then taking that to ourselves and just it's about compassion and actually having self-compassion on ourselves.

So when we feel frightened about something and I talk a lot about what we traditionally call negative emotions because those are the things that we quite often get upset about ourselves like when we're angry or when we're stressed or when we're overwhelmed or when we're jealous and we traditionally feel like those are bad emotions and we shouldn't feel those things and we shouldn't get angry and we shouldn't get stressed but actually if we can bring in this peace that we're offering our children this compassion if we can bring in self-compassion and be inquisitive so coming back to this being curious be curious about why am I feeling angry instead of just saying oh I shouldn't be angry and I'm an awful person and I'm really stressed and I shouldn't be stressed and it's all bad.

Actually bringing in this compassion for ourselves bringing curiosity and asking ourselves why am I angry why am I stressed and from there you can really begin then to bring in those same tools you bring in for your children and say actually what do I need what what am I telling myself I need or what am I missing you know am I am I angry because I'm hungry you know that's the thing or I'm really tired you know or what is it that's making me stressed is there something that this is regularly happening is there a pattern to this I remember one job that I was in it was the only time in my teaching career I went and saw the the GP and I didn't realize I was stressed but I was really unwell and I went and saw the GP and they said you're stressed tell me about your lifestyle and it turned out that really it was work and I came home and my husband said you know how did it go what did they say so I said they said I'm stressed and they've they've said it's work you know we had a chat about it and I concur it's it's definitely work that's really really not good which my husband knew as well because it had been ongoing and this hadn't occurred to me and my husband just looked at me and he said why don't you just get a new job it was like oh yes I could I could do that couldn't I I hadn't thought about it so it's just kind of bringing in that element of being curious and asking what's actually going on but not missing the self-compassion you know not beating ourselves up because we got cross about something but actually looking at the bigger picture and yeah figuring out why so yeah self-compassion curiosity and asking those big questions about why why those things are happening.

Yeah so I'm wondering Heidi whether you think that if you were in that kind of situation now whether you would be quicker to notice what was going on for you?

Absolutely I mean this is one of the things about unschooling ourselves like when you start out I think there's a very rapid a very intense period of time where a lot of things change particularly if you start unschooling like I said because you've got this dual element of your children coming alongside you and really challenging a lot of the assumptions and things that you thought were true so it happens very quickly and then you kind of come to a point where it's a little bit more stable and you're living a beautiful joyful and peaceful and this kind of abundant lifestyle not that it's without its meltdowns and its and its challenges but I think what happens is those things arise less often and when they do come up it's a familiar pattern like oh yeah I recognize this feeling okay and you have a lot more tools at hand because you're well practiced at navigating it and I think a lot of the tools are that self-compassion oh yeah I know this is happening again okay and so you can kind of ride it easier because you don't get so flustered about it and kind of like an intense oh no I've got it this is I don't know what to do with this and I don't know where to go and I don't know who to talk to now because it does still happen now all these years later I'm in community I recognize the process I can sit with those feelings and those thoughts a lot longer I can take my time over them and be and be happy to take my time over them my children are older so I can say to them because they are now of an age where they can be rational and understand things like that I can say so actually I'm finding this a bit tricky I would like to take a moment or some time to have a think about how I feel about this and they can be okay with that whereas when they're four and five or maybe even maybe even 10 and 11 if you've got neurodivergent children you know they want they want you to get with the program right now they want you on it it's not there's not really a room in the same way for you to have that discussion that says um I need to go and think about this for a minute so yeah so it still happens but it's a very different experience further down the line so if people are in this process of kind of unschooling themselves it strikes me that different areas of our lives sort of some things shift really quickly and other things take quite a lot longer yeah I think so and then some things people find really easy to let go of and that will be different for everybody so my history with religious institutions and church is very long complicated and complex and and deep and other people they might be like listening to this and going well that I don't care about that that's not a thing but other people might have more a more complex relationship with health and diet and food and and that's going to take them longer to work through those things unschooling is very much about finding peace and and doing things that your children find peaceful and doing things that your children find joyful you know so co-sleeping you know a lot of unschooling families co-sleep for many many more years than than other families do because it's a peaceful way for our children to fall asleep and and so we just keep doing it until one day our children go yeah all right I'm gonna go sleep in my own bed now and they and they toddle off and or maybe not toddle if they're not toddlers but you know they at some point go and do that so it's different for everybody and it's about this being peaceful and joyful and then if we can follow that in our own lives and go actually do you know what I'm doing this thing that actually I find intensely difficult and I don't mean like challenging in a really you know amazing way like why am I doing this I've known someone schooling parents to completely change their careers because because they've come to the realization that they're doing a job they absolutely hate it was just a path that they followed you know in an extension of their education and this is where they ended up and now their children are spending their days and their lives doing things that are meaningful to them and joyful and interesting and as parents they've reflected and gone oh hang on a minute I want that I want to do something that's meaningful and joyful and so they've completely changed their careers it doesn't have to be that drastic you might just take up a new hobby you might just go you know what I've always fancied I don't know butterflies I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna learn about butterflies and I'm gonna go and find out where I can see them or you try things alongside your children like paddle boarding is something quite recent for us that we have taken up because our children were interested in it and so that's something we did alongside our children and that's not something I would have chosen to do as my own interest but I do it alongside my children and it's really fun and we enjoy it all together so it doesn't have to be a huge life change you can try small things like what would happen if what would happen if I didn't eat I said broccoli because everyone says broccoli is good for you and what happens if I don't want to eat broccoli what if I want to try something else instead it can be a simple thing or olives there are some people who really like olives and there are some people who really don't and there are some people who are kind of ambivalent about them but eat them because that's what you do yeah oh and being able to say no do you know I don't I don't have to politely eat that olive because everyone else is I can say no thank you I don't want that olive I don't need to go to that thing or I don't need to have my drive repaved because everybody else in the street house yes yeah that's yeah that's a thing yeah like do you really want to do that why am I going to that what am I doing do I really want to spend my evening with those people and do or go to that event and spend my money on that thing actually no I want to be at home in pajamas thank you very much all the other way round all the other way round yes the other way round yes like actually would I rather go out this evening and go and see what's on locally and go and join the local pub quiz or you know we're right near the south downs we can go on the top of the south downs and look at the stars and yeah go do something joyful so something about just noticing noticing what's going on within are you finding that joy and peace or is there something kind of rumbling underneath which if you listen to it would tell you actually this isn't comfortable I don't fit here and quite often particularly adults we get swept into like a routine or a habit of what we're doing and it might be that it suited us in the first place when we started doing it and actually if we take the time to kind of reflect we can go oh that's not serving me anymore that isn't something I find joyful anymore you know this is part of unschooling ourselves as well our children do this very easily they get up and they walk out you know they do it with unapologetically as adults we might do it a little bit more sensitively but actually being able to say this doesn't serve me anymore or this isn't somewhere that I can't serve anymore or this isn't something that I'm enjoying anymore and be able to put that down and walk away and not get stuck in those but so a little bit like we were saying in the beginning like we do things without thinking about it it might just be habit now and we're not thinking about it actually to have a little reflection and then make a conscious and intentional choice about it yes yes I do want to invest in this and I do want to do this or or actually now I think I want to explore something else even if you don't know what that is right now that's that's always the scarier bit when we're unschooling ourselves the bit where we know what we're doing doesn't suit but we're not quite sure what it looks like next so it's kind of that unlearning like we've we've kind of unlearned oh hang on my child doesn't need to do curriculum and then there's this bit where we go but what are we doing it's like what does that look like instead you know there's that relearning and there can be this bit in between where it feels very uncertain that's the bit you get practiced at when you've done it a while yes but actually that bit in between is really really important because you you sort of need space to simmer down from one thing before you can move to the next I don't know if you've come across the concept of liminal space which is giving a name really to that kind of in-betweenness but the idea that if you're letting go of one thing you actually need some dead space as it were some we're not sure what's happening next and we're not going to force the next thing in order to be ready for the thing after and if you try and leap that gap then quite often you end up leaping into something which doesn't fit either because you were just sort of panicked into it yeah it's kind of like that moment of pausing and being comfortable in that pause because again something that we've learned again probably subconsciously is that it's really important to be doing things you've got to be doing something but actually to be able to sit comfortably in that space is an art form in itself and it's completely okay in fact like you said it's necessary it can be a healing space as well to work through some of the the feelings you have maybe the disappointment or the anger or the frustration the realization that that the thing you've let go of has been the thing you've been holding on to for years you know there's a lot in that space to be mulling over and it's really important to do so it's a it's a healing process to to be able to do that and particularly if it's been something that has been long-standing and really deep because otherwise if you then leapt into something else without allowing that that time then there's two things isn't there you can end up unconsciously bringing stuff with you but you can also end up unconsciously bringing with you your fight against the last thing because it was so destructive so yes so i think for anybody who's making a move which is from something which has been really ingrained and really influential on kind of who you are and how you interact with the world and what your deepest beliefs and values are when that's the kind of thing which you're sort of suddenly questioning of course that's going to take time and you know whatever it is as well there's always going to be like another layer another another question and you know when we're talking about things like spirituality or even how we parent you know there's lots of questions around what is it that i think and believe and hold true and what is it you know what is it that someone else has told me to think and believe and hold true and it can get really complex and and those things take time and one may even wonder whether there is an end point and whether we're just continually assessing and evaluating those things so that so which again is why you have to bring in this kind of self-compassion element so there's a lovely quote by Maya Angelou about forgiving ourselves for not knowing what we didn't know before something like that we might have to go and double check that and it's beautiful because we can't know everything and we are always learning which again is an unschooling and unschooling thing like we're always learning and children are always learning and adults always learning there isn't like an end point we don't get to the age of 18 and then go oh we're finished now we're done but at all or the end of university tick got my degree done learning as humans we're always learning and we're always learning new things and learning new things about ourselves so bringing in that that self-compassion is really really important yeah and i think working on the basis that some of what we think now we won't think in the future i remember hearing somebody say i know that some of the things i think now are wrong and i know this because some of the things that i was convinced of five years ago i now know were wrong so inevitably there will be some things that i think now which in 10 years time i will entirely disagree with yeah and actually that's part of the process and and it should be we shouldn't be stuck in this this is who i am and this is who i will always be particularly in terms of our ideas and understanding about the world and how we should be and how we should we interact and you know how anyway all those things just change constantly i've always been challenged by new perspective and new ideas i've just finished writing a book which is going to be published in february and that is one of the hardest things about writing a book understanding yourself as an author and saying i'm going to write this book but actually quite lightly by that because it takes a really long time to write and publish but quite rightly by the time i publish this book i might disagree with some of the things i've written in it but being able to understand that about other people as well like being able to hold that true for yourself and for other people like that that person that i married 20 years ago now has different ideas and and thoughts and and beliefs than they they did then just anyone it's you know people change hmm so this whole idea of unschooling is potentially all pervasive isn't it it can encompass how we view our own feelings how we interact with the things that we were told our own ability to change as we mature it's very different being a 54 year old woman to what it is being a 25 year old woman for all sorts of reasons some of them are hormonal some of them i'm pulling faces i'm agreeing wholeheartedly yeah that's so you kind of walk through the world differently you know simple things like when your knees creak a bit more the things that you used to be able to do easily before you can't do in the same way and one of the things that you learn as a parent is that children change and grow and and part of unschooling is inevitably about creating space for people to change and grow and develop and so if we can do that for ourselves and and the other people in our lives i think that's really beautiful yeah and also bringing that unschooling ourselves element when we're unschooling our children to allow them to change and grow in the ways that they are drawn to and in the time scale that they're changing and growing the beautiful different directions that different children go in and the way that they navigate the world and they do that actually for us to be able to do that for ourselves as well to kind of be able to expand in my head i've got a picture of a cocoon but it's not like a cocoon it it's more like a structure that's holding us in that says this is the type of job you should have or this is the car you should drive and this is this is what you should do in your spare time and this is what you should spend your money on kind of constraints put on us by other people or expectations or society and for us to actually be able to lean into where do i want to explore what do i want to expand into what do i want to spend my money on what i want to spend my time doing and leaning in more to what do i find fulfilling so this is why i call it unschooling ourselves because it's those are the things that we are affording our children and then to kind of turn it around and afford those things to ourselves as well and it has this beautiful benefit of us living in alignment with our children like they they they see when we're not doing those things and that becomes like a source of tension because they do grow into an understanding of well hang on i'm doing i'm doing all this but that's not what adulthood looks like that's not what my parents look like so if we can unschool ourselves our children can have a reassurance that what they're experiencing and doing leads into something beautiful and wonderful and that adulthood is also i know it comes with its challenges but you know there is joy and peace and all those things to be found and had and lived yes yeah so modeling what it is to listen to ourselves and it occurs to me that for many people listening to this they will have children who are still in the education system and who are not on an unschooling journey but i still think that there are elements of this listening to ourselves and kind of having this sense of inner alignment for ourselves and having that for our children even if all it does in terms of education is give permission for conversations that say yeah i'm not surprised you found that really difficult to take school you know there are elements of this that work for everybody yeah and i really encourage people to consider carefully what's the messages that schooling is giving them that they can take the pressure off at home with but to be on your child's side to be able to listen to your child when they're finding things difficult or joyful whatever you know but when they're finding things difficult to be on your child's side and messages about school being the be-all and end-all and passing exams being the be-all and end-all and again an a grade being the be-all and end-all it's actually the love of learning that actually is really important and being interested in things school has a habit of focusing on things your children are finding tricky unschooling has a habit of focusing on things your child loves and is really good at and the other things will come in time through meaningful interaction with whatever it is they're doing and if they're not academics and it's not school if it's lego or climbing trip and i keep talking about climbing trees a lot because my boys did that a lot climbing trees ice skating i don't know paddling in water at the beach find something that your child's interested in even if it's not academics yeah and often there are opportunities in those things that you wouldn't expect so we live next to a canal and my husband and i were canoeing along the canal and came past some neighbours and this guy had moved in recently to a house near the canal and he'd got this sort of big rope swing off of a tree his job involves climbing up buildings and trees for various things he's self-employed and does all sorts of random stuff which involves climbing there are opportunities in all sorts which is fascinating and i think so school has a habit of really narrowing our view on what's possible so if you can do that if you can go out and step out into the world and go look this person's got a career in going up trees with ropes you don't have to sit at desk for five hours a day and at some point either a you'll learn how to do your accountancy and financing as someone who's self-employed or b you'll outsource it to somebody who knows how to do it so either way it's going to be fine you know there are a million jobs out there people have said oh you know children who do course writing well they're not gonna they're not gonna do that as a career are they well somebody's teaching these children to ride horses who do you think they are somebody's spending time with these children in in dance classes you know somebody's doing swimming there's people doing all sorts of things out there in the world and and not only that but there's all sorts of jobs available in the world that don't even exist yet that your children will be doing in like in five ten fifteen years time there's a whole array of things out there and lots of possibilities if so unschooling ourselves opening up our our minds to what is actually out there instead of being funneled into this way of thinking that this is this is the only thing there is this is the only way you're going to succeed it really isn't and more importantly if your children have got supportive parents and like i said you know people who are on their side and good relationships then those things are the things that are going to carry them through yeah fantastic it's been a really really good conversation heidi do you want to let people know how they can find you if they would like to find out more about what you get up to so i have lots of information on my website live play learn dot org um you can go there there's things that you can read you can sign up for specific information about unschooling and you can also access my unschooling community which is called the unschooling village hub where we get together every week for those who can join online and then there's lots of pre-recorded stuff and an online community chat group as well for those who aren't able to do that so that would be one way and then the other way is facebook and instagram there'll be links on the on the website and so i post regularly there about what we're up to and and what unschooling looks like and sharing ideas and and things if you want a little bit more of an insight into what life can can be like without school and you do a podcast i understand oh yes i do don't i that's a good job you remembered i bet i've only been doing it for four years so that's called unschooling conversations and so on unschooling conversations i invite guests on a little bit like yourself they share their unschooling journey some of them are families that i have worked with and and feel able to come and share their stories and the difference that unschooling has made to them and what that has looked like for them so a little bit explaining what their unschooling their self-process has been like and lots of people who are interested in different ways of educating their children and have been doing it really a long time veterans in the unschooling world who have time to to come and share their wealth of experience and knowledge and i have topics i have ones on self-compassion that comes up a lot neurodivergence comes up a lot and community so we're on season three of the podcast at the moment and those definitely the three topics that have come up most frequently so you can go and find that that's on spotify and youtube yep and that's unschooling conversations if people want that yes excellent and what's your book called that's coming out in february my book is called school isn't for everyone and what you can do instead and apparently that fits on the cover of the book i was a bit worried it was a bit long so yeah school isn't for everyone and what you can do instead so i interviewed 10 families who came and shared their stories and their experiences of unschooling and what it looks like for them and the reasons why they do it and lots of information covering that very intense period at the beginning of your unschooling journey where lots of things change very very rapidly and so how you move from school through to the ease of unschooling it's a really practical book as well it's got little reflections and exercises in and it's got some beautiful illustrations by a friend of mine so yes i'm really looking forward to that being being published in february brilliant well people should look out for that thank you so much for your time heidi this has been really really good thank you so much for having me back and letting me chat lots that's been brilliant thank you hope you enjoyed this episode of the loved called gifted podcast if you'd like to get in touch you can email lovedcalledgifted@gmail.com you can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted.com and that's also the place to go if you're interested in the loved called gifted course or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching thank you for listening