[Music] Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted podcast.
This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose.
I'm your host, Catherine Cowell. [Music fades]

C: So welcome to another episode of the podcast and I'm here today with Margaret McGregor and we've done a couple of podcasts together.
We run a course for parents of children with additional needs called 'And Breathe' and what we're going to talk about today is one of the things that we talk about on our course.
So thank you for being here Margaret, 

M: Thank you for having me.

C: And we're here on a very wet and windy morning so you might better hear the wind in the background.

But one of the things that we cover on our course is some thinking about what kind of parent is God.

So we inherit parenting ideas from our own upbringing, from our culture, from the communities that we're part of and that kind of traditional view of parenting would tell us that the job of a parent is to be in charge amongst other things, to impose consequences if our young persons are not behaving the way we think they should, and to offer rewards for good behaviour.
And there's lots of other things involved in parenting like teaching and nurturing and all of those other things but there is this kind of view of traditional parenting which suggests that as a parent you can do quite a lot of controlling of the behaviour of your children.

And we tend to view God's parenting through this cultural lens of being in charge, telling us what to do, imposing consequences, offering rewards and then what happens is that that tracks back to a belief that if we are good Christians that's what our parenting will look like and if it doesn't then we can get all sorts of messages both internally I think from our own expectations of what our parenting might look like and from the people around us that suggest that we are not good parents.

But that leads us to a question really which is, is this how God parents us?

And we're not sure that it is.

M: Yeah I think the traditional view of God which a lot of people see God as is a man with long white hair, big beard and a stick.

That's how they see that God is saying you shouldn't be doing that, you're doing the wrong thing and that I think is a very traditional view of how people view God and similarly that God is our Father therefore that is how he parents us, a very disciplinarian view and lots of consequences that are generally punishments.

C: And rewards, I think there is a view that if we're behaving well then good things will happen.

M: Yes, definitely.

C: And we know don't we that particularly if you are parenting children and young people with additional needs or with attachment problems all kinds of things really that that traditional perspective of how parenting will work often doesn't.

M: Yeah we often start with the traditional parenting when we start as a parent and then our children... You know we read lots of books, I read lots of books as a parent looking about how I would want to be a parent and everything and it seemed to all make sense but unfortunately our children didn't read the books.

C: Did they not?

M: No.

C: They should have done shouldn't they?

M: They should have come out of the womb with a manual and have read the manual but unfortunately they don't.

C: No, no absolutely I had a conversation in an earlier podcast with Naomi Fisher and she's got a brilliant book called "When the Naughty Step Makes Things Worse" and she is really looking very specifically at that.

What do you do and why is it this view of I'll impose consequences and my children will behave better and actually that isn't how things work and she explains that very eloquently but I think even for people who are not facing the challenge of parenting children who are neurodiverse or have differing needs that means that that system doesn't work I think all of us can actually be quite damaged by this view of God as a disciplinarian.

M: Yeah.  Something that we focus on on the course is all about relationship and building relationship and we look at relationship with God and our own parents and our own children and our partner if we have one and relationship - it all boils down to relationships.
And a good relationship, the fact that actually if we love God and we know he loves us that we want to do the right thing but that's built out of relationship not from fear of being hit by the stick that we are seeing waved around from heaven so that's why we wanted to look at the Bible to see what does the Bible say how is God parenting us.

C: Yes and I actually think that I mean we'll come to this later but I think that we also know from our own experience that the picture that we're painting of God isn't actually the parenting that we experience.

M: no 

C: But in Luke's gospel so in the story of Jesus's life that Luke wrote Jesus was wanting to help people to understand what God's parenting is like, and so he tells three little stories one where he compares God to a good shepherd who if he's got 100 sheep and one of them goes the wrong way and wanders off the shepherd will go and find the sheep and bring them back.

M: yeah 

C: and it's kind of not the sheep's responsibility to do the bringing back.

M:  no he went to search for them 

C: yes and I think in the traditional view of parenting if a child decides to wander off either literally or metaphorically by doing the wrong thing we sort of say well it's your job to come back we'll be nice to you when you do - and yet the shepherd goes and seeks out the sheep.  
And then God is compared to a woman who has got 10 precious coins and she loses one and my understanding is that they were connected with sort of the coins that you would get when you got married and you would have a particular number of them so it's a little bit like losing your wedding ring so she loses a coin and then spends the whole day searching for it and finding it and is absolutely delighted when she does.
So we have this picture of God as a woman who has lost her coin and desperately wants to find it.
And is searching for it and then there is this story which is the one that we're going to focus on because it's really really rich in terms of what does God's parenting look like, and it is the story of the running father which you may or may not be familiar with and given that we're going to look at this in detail I thought it would be very helpful to actually read it yeah so this is from the message version and if you want to go and find it it's in Luke chapter 15 and starts at verse 11.

LUKE 15 (MSG)
11-12 Then he said, “There was once a man who had two sons. The younger said to his father, ‘Father, I want right now what’s coming to me.’
12-16 “So the father divided the property between them. It wasn’t long before the younger son packed his bags and left for a distant country. There, undisciplined and dissipated, he wasted everything he had. After he had gone through all his money, there was a bad famine all through that country and he began to feel it. He signed on with a citizen there who assigned him to his fields to slop the pigs. He was so hungry he would have eaten the corn-cobs in the pig slop, but no one would give him any.
17-20 “That brought him to his senses. He said, ‘All those farmhands working for my father sit down to three meals a day, and here I am starving to death. I’m going back to my father. I’ll say to him, Father, I’ve sinned against God, I’ve sinned before you; I don’t deserve to be called your son. Take me on as a hired hand.’ He got right up and went home to his father.
20-21 “When he was still a long way off, his father saw him. His heart pounding, he ran out, embraced him, and kissed him. The son started his speech: ‘Father, I’ve sinned against God, I’ve sinned before you; I don’t deserve to be called your son ever again.’
22-24 “But the father wasn’t listening. He was calling to the servants, ‘Quick. Bring a clean set of clothes and dress him. Put the family ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Then get a prize-winning heifer and roast it. We’re going to feast! We’re going to have a wonderful time! My son is here—given up for dead and now alive! Given up for lost and now found!’ And they began to have a wonderful time.
25-27 “All this time his older son was out in the field. When the day’s work was done he came in. As he approached the house, he heard the music and dancing. Calling over one of the houseboys, he asked what was going on. He told him, ‘Your brother came home. Your father has ordered a feast—barbecued beef!—because he has him home safe and sound.’
28-30 “The older brother stomped off in an angry sulk and refused to join in. His father came out and tried to talk to him, but he wouldn’t listen. The son said, ‘Look how many years I’ve stayed here serving you, never giving you one moment of grief, but have you ever thrown a party for me and my friends? Then this son of yours who has thrown away your money on whores shows up and you go all out with a feast!’
31-32 “His father said, ‘Son, you don’t understand. You’re with me all the time, and everything that is mine is yours—but this is a wonderful time, and we had to celebrate. This brother of yours was dead, and he’s alive! He was lost, and he’s found!’”

C: So there is the story of the running father sometimes called the prodigal son, and the reason that I think the running father is a really good title for that is that it was hugely counter-cultural when Jesus told the story, and one of the things about men in that culture is that you wouldn't run.

M:  no very undignified to run

C:  yes so it's a very kind of counter-cultural sort of action.
And we have found that looking at this story there is so much in it that tells us about God's parenting which very much reflects what it is to parent therapeutically relationally.

So let's have a look at what we see in the story.

M: To start off with the father allowed the son to go, there isn't any evidence in the story that he tried to persuade him to stay and he sort of allowed the natural consequences to happen you know I'm sure he said "please don't go" but he allowed it to happen and I think as parents sometimes we have to allow things to happen to our children as they get older so we're not talking about toddlers here we're talking about older children who make their own decisions and as hard as it is we have to let them do it and actually find out for themselves what will happen - but he went away he spent all his money and obviously he was starving and it says he came to his senses didn't he and he went back to his father but his father - he ran and welcomed him with open arms!  
and I think that is a huge example to us as parents that actually no matter what our children get up to what happens to them that we just have to be waiting I mean I think that's the implication in the story that it was like while he was still a long way off his father was watching for him he was waiting for him to come back - and that's unconditional love that he showed him to say welcome back.  
You know what I mean - welcome back my son is just a huge example of what God does for us that we can mess up he's waiting for us with arms open wide say welcome home welcome back, and as parents as well that's how we should be to our children 

C: yeah I think as the parent of children with additional needs with attachment issues in particular, one of the key things is that actually you often can't dictate what your children do.

M: very true 

C: you know if there are people listening who've got kids with pda which stands for pathological demand avoidance actually trying to tell your children what to do is very very difficult 

M: yes 

C: and if you have neurotypical children then very often it works when they're quite small and they are under the illusion that you have some kind of control and then they get teenage years and it's not.  
So I think in everybody's parenting journey there comes a point where that sense that as a parent you can be in charge of your children sort of disappears.  And then there is a question of how do you manage that and is the right role of a parent to be very very much in charge and dictating and deciding for your children and for all of our kids at some point there comes a point where you can't do that.

So I think it's really interesting that God who we would see as being ultimately in charge and in control yeah Jesus very much portrays in this story as not taking that role

M:  yeah 

C: it's really tricky isn't it that kind of sense of I ought as a parent to be able to make sure that the right thing happens.  The absolute cultural classic example is that whole thing about parents responsible for getting their children to school.

M:  yes that's a whole 

C: that's a whole other thing 

M: yeah 

C: But it is working on the basis that you can make that happen and actually the truth is that no human being ultimately has control over another human being even as a parent you can influence things but you can't control it 

M: and I suppose looking at the whole area of school when they are small you can control it because you can pick your child up and put them in the car strap them in and take them to school but unfortunately as they get older that becomes more tricky especially when they get bigger than you there is no way that you can actually pick up a young teenager and get them in the car...

C: I don't think you can pick up an eight-year-old 

M: well that's probably true as well and it's the whole thing that actually we want to influence our children we want to set a good example for our children we encourage them to do the right thing and to begin with most most children will do that but at some point they have to decide that they want to do the right thing not because their mum and dad says it's the right thing, but actually because it is the right thing and they've got to come to that decision themselves and I think often it does happen around teenagers where they're becoming their own person and making those decisions for themselves.  Because they've got to make those decisions for themselves as they get into adulthood they can't keep relying on mum and dad's values opinions - although obviously it's nice when you're asked advice from your older children who are now adults 
You have to come they have to come to it we you know I had to come to that as a teenager what do I believe what do I believe about God what do I believe about everything really and come to that themselves and I think that is a hard transition as a parent to allow that space for thinking debating within a safe environment isn't it 

C: Yes and I think there's a couple of things that sort of strike me - one is that the father in this story provides the safe base to come back to.  And that's absolutely crucial isn't it.
That sense that you can go and explore and you might do something that's completely daft but you can go and explore, and you know that there will be a safe base to come back to. And the point at which the son says well all those farmhands working for my father sit down to three meals a day, he knew what his father was like he knew what his family was like presumably if there was a famine where he was then possibly things were a little bit short where his father lived, I don't know how far he'd gone away.  
But that sense of here is a safe place to come back to and a really core principle of therapeutic parenting is continuing to be that safe place to come back to whether it's just that your child has kind of become dysregulated and gone off in a strop or whether they have actually left and are coming back that sense of kind of being there.
And so his previous life with his father meant that he knew 

M: that his dad would be there for him 

C: yes, and he believed that despite what he had done, he had the option of coming home. So ultimately it was safe.  He didn't quite think that he would be able to be a son again but he believed that this was a safe place to come back to.

M: yeah and that his father was a good human being who would look after him even though he didn't deserve to be his son, which is what the son's point of view.  Although you actually see that his father did treat him as a son, welcomed him straight back into the center of the family and didn't take what had happened before into account at that point he welcomed him back.

C: One of the things that we talk about on the course is this principle of striking when the iron's cold.  
So the key thing about relational parenting is that you are looking to build relationship and you are looking for all of the options, all of the opportunities that there are for warmth and relationship and love and connection.  And so the fact that the child has come home, means that at that moment the priority is absolutely connection.

And that's not to say i think one of the things that i think looking at this story imaginatively is that we can only see, i mean it's a story it's a story that jesus made up for the purposes of telling and stuff, but then you think about what might be the events around that be, and at what point might there have been a conversation with the son about what had gone on.  
A gentle kind of thinking conversation about okay so i wonder how how might you handle that next time.  What have you learned about managing money.

M: And there's no questions is there, the father came home welcomed him back, and obviously threw a party for him because he was so pleased he'd come back.  I mean you wonder whether the father actually knew what had gone on i mean i suppose the state of him, you know, he'd been he probably smelt of pigs and looked hungry you know looked emaciated and all the rest of it who knows, but at that moment when he welcomes him home he runs embraces him kisses him throws a party.  There's no questions at that point like you say you know, later you wonder i'm sure there would have been questions, like "where have you been, tell us tell us a bit tell us about what's gone on" 

C: but i think, but i think, the the way that the father is speaking to him and also to his brother does suggest that that would have been quite a therapeutic conversation.  That it wouldn't have been a conversation that is sort of accusatory because that's not the tenor of it at all.
But i think he did know a bit about what was going on because the older son knows he says he's thrown away your money on whores and shows up.

M: ah true 

C: So they did know they've got some idea about what's going on

M: yes so they had some idea, and even so he just embraced and kissed him and threw a party which is amazing.


C: But we talk about sort of unconditional gestures of love and affection don't we and quite often when our kids are having a difficult time, sometimes love and affection they find difficult to cope with, and they find contact with us difficult to cope with.  
And so one of the things that we often talk about doing is just finding little ways of reminding our kids that we love them.

M: yes and that can be simple like i know when we were going through a tricky time in our family delivering a takeaway i knew they enjoyed to their bedroom door, or even texting your child even when they've had a rant at you just "night love you" at the end of the day every night.  They know, it it does pay off, because it goes in they know they know they are loved despite everything that is going on that they know they are loved.
and actually when the chips are down they do come back to you and this is what happened in this case that he thought well actually i've come to the end of myself there is nothing for me wherever he was that literally there is nothing i'll go back to my dad

C: yes 

M: because i know i know i'll get fed that you know the basics survival, "I  know i'll get fed" that was the only thing he was thinking of at that point.  I'll get fed the servants get three meals at least.  i'll get fed.

C: I am really struck by the level of manipulation that the son is engaging in, and the fact that his dad has nothing to do with the manipulation.  So there's a confidence standing his ground that the father does.
but the son is coming back having thought this through.
and very often very often our kids for survival reasons i think particularly children who've got attachment issues they are trying to work out how to survive in a world that they believe is unsafe.  And one of the ways that you survive is that you are quite manipulative.

So he's got it he's like well i'll come and work for you.  And you can imagine the conversation i can imagine that kind of thinking which is "well actually if i go and i say 'well i'll be like one of your hired hands'"...
I can remember conversations about money that i've had with my kids in the past, but sort of like 'well if i do that then you'll have to do this for me' - so if i go and work if i go and work out in the fields like one of your servants, well you've got to pay me because you pay them!

M: yes at least feed me 

C: yes but actually the father is not getting dragged into that.  And I can remember that temptation to kind of get dragged into these complicated conversations about well 

M: you do this i do that

C: yeah yes or the last time i did that you did this for me so this time can if i do this then you have to do that because you did before.
and you kind of and and actually there is a real power in therapeutically stepping back from that and say "no no no i'm not going to be manipulated".  This gesture of love which is coming from me is not going to be because you think you've earned it.

So it's not the party is not going to come after you've spent three weeks working in the field, and then i will let you come back which is very much the traditional parenting thing isn't it.
You have to earn your way back so the father in the story stands his ground and actually just loves.

M: he is in charge 

C: he is in charge very subtly 

M: a different version of being in charge than the traditional parenting in charge how it looks 

C: yes it's much more about being in charge of yourself than it is about being in charge of your children.  Sort of being in charge of of what you are going to do.  
And actually that's part of in the context of what's sometimes referred to as non-violent resistance or connective parenting which is one model of therapeutic parenting relational parenting.  And what you're talking about is kind of enhancing your presence with your children so you're enhancing your influence and part of that is not being manipulated

M: yeah and i often say it's like the only person you can be in charge of is yourself 

C: absolutely 

M: because you cannot force anyone by hook-a-bike rockin' nice means or otherwise to do anything they don't want to do or aren't capable of doing.  Because sometimes our kids sometimes really struggle you know it's not that they won't, it's because they can't do something.
So the only behavior you can change is your own, in most situations.  And by changing your own behavior that actually changes the atmosphere and and does come round to actually changing behaviors in the children as well 

C: yes 

M: but it's more subtle and it can be seen initially, and i know people have said this to me, and i know they've probably said it to you as well, and lots of parents get this "you're being too soft on them"

C: yes 

M: because they see what is happening in the moment but they don't see the long plan that we have.  That actually we're building relationship with these kids, and actually there is no point - and it's very tempting when a child is coming back, child, adult is coming back, and the situation if for instance you lose a child in a park - you know i've been there where the child's like hid under a bush and come out the different side, and they don't know where you are - that actually when you do find them your initial response,  because you've been really anxious, your emotions are heightened, you go "Where the hell have you been?" 
And you react to the child in a really negative way, but that's because of your own emotions and your anxiety - that you've lost your child - that anxiety comes out as anger.

We often see that in our own children don't we that actually anxiety comes out as anger, at times it can be misinterpreted.  But what that child needs at that point is "that's fantastic, we found you!"
Which is what the father did in this situation "you've come back to us, that is something to celebrate"

C: yes i remember when my two were quite young, my oldest had stormed off.  We were going somewhere and he'd kind of stormed off down the road in an absolute rage. and i think because he'd stormed off i had a bit of thinking time.
But there's that initial oh my goodness he's quite small and i need to be in control of him, and now i'm not and he's wandered off and and i've got another child to look after at the same time.  
And then as he kind of got over his strop, and he was coming back, i had that kind of thinking moment 'okay how do i respond when he gets back to me' and when he got back what i actually said to him was "Well done,  it's really difficult to get out of a strop, and yet you've got out of a strop and you've come back i think that's brilliant!"  - which was exactly what he needed.

M: Because next time he has a strop you hope that he'll remember the previous time that he came back and got a good response from you, rather than telling off, or a negative response.  Because if he's going to get a negative response in that situation he's thinking well what's the point in going back 

C: absolutely

M: because i'm actually going to be shouted at 

C: yes going back is now now there's a bigger barrier to go back because there is fear that is attached to that.

I mean i have to say margaret that it was years before - we have to learn 

M&C speaking together: yes it's a learning process

C:  but it but for me as a parent it was a real kind of learning moment that i i thought actually no actually that was the right way to respond to that, and i am going to learn to do that more often.
And i think we do learn from our good moments as much as as far as our bad moments

M:  The word you're using is response and that's the thing because often 

C: we react 

M: and our reactions can be more negative 

C: yes it's how do we how do we continue to provide this sort of safe space that says, actually there is always a safe space to come back to.

But going back to what you were saying before about the kind of responses that we get from other people, i think it's really interesting that Jesus is very deliberately portraying God as counter-cultural, in the degree to which God loves us.
So this is the third of those three stories and so God is compared with the shepherd - well shepherds were not seen as being decent members of society, so you couldn't be a witness in a court of law if you were a shepherd, they were very much outcasts.
We know what the position of women, so the woman at home looking for her coins 
And then we have a father, who is not behaving the way that a good Jewish father should behave.

M: no 

C: And so what we are seeing in that story, for those of us who have parented and really felt looked down upon, i think there is an invitation to see that God knows what that feels like

M:  yeah 

C: That God is with us in the middle of that social stigma about 'actually your parenting isn't the way that we think it ought to be' 

M: and it's having that confidence to be counter-cultural because it can feel is it quite counter-intuitive, it can be go really against everybody around you.

And i think that's as well those of us that have children with additional needs and attachment issues, we often try and need to build a village around us who understands it and are hopefully parenting in a similar way.

C: Often that's after the journey though of trying to behave in the way that the village that is around us in the first place thinks we ought to, and discovering that that doesn't work.

M: yes and you just hope you find someone in the village that does get it, or you find someone and have to move village sometimes 

C: yes absolutely 

M: Have to move villages!
And i think with with the story of the prodigal son, the running father - because obviously we're concentrating a lot on the father - what happens later in the story is the other brother the older brother 

C: Who is saying it's not fair!  And many of us are dealing with siblings and we need to respond to our different children in different ways according to what they need.
And there is such a temptation - particularly when the other child is playing the it's not fair card - there is a huge temptation to feel well i need to go back then and show that i am fair, and that there is a consequence to this.  
But that self confidence that the father has in this story is that he doesn't do that.  

M: And thats actually treating each child as a unique individual, that needs different things, and when you've got more than one child in your household, you need to learn how to do that.  And that is hard.

And then often the question we get asked a lot is how do we cope with siblings and their different needs - and actually there's not a lot out there - a lot of families out there are struggling with this.  But it is about treating each individual child and juggling.  And it is hard juggling the needs of more than one child, it is hard, there's no two ways about that, but i think in this situation the running father is quite: "this is what i'm doing for my son"

C: yes.  And points out what he has been doing for the older son.  So he says, doesn't he, "son you don't understand you're with me all the time.  Everything that is mine is yours".  And then invites him into relationship with the one who's come back, because he suddenly labels him as his brother.  "He says this brother of yours was dead and he's alive".

M: Something i've just realized, consequences of actions, the youngest son had his inheritance already has squandered it, he's come back, and the father saying 'everything i have is yours' to the older son - which means the consequences of the younger son's action - he has no longer got an inheritance, at this point because it is spent.  It's not that - and perhaps this is what the older brother was worrying about 'well i was going to inherit the whole farm, the whole caboodle, and now he's back i'm going to split it up again' - but actually he says "no, everything's it's yours already" you know what i mean.

So that you know that that's something i've just spotted in the sense that it's like oh no consequences of your action, there are still consequences of the actions and the inheritance has gone.

C: yes yes, and i i think there is a there's a huge temptation to rescue our kids when they've done something daft there's a huge temptation to kind of be there to rescue them, but actually in order to learn and to grow they need to experience what goes wrong.
So if they've run out of money, i mean i've been in this situation, that you know the son runs out of money and you think i really want i really want to step in, but actually if they're going to understand how to manage money it's important that the running out of money equals running out of money 

M: yeah 

C: so that then you can think okay how am i going to manage this next time and i i would always want to be there alongside supporting with the decision making, and being that kind of last the sort of the last stop. But i wouldn't be putting my hand in my pocket all the time to do the rescuing.  And i think that applies in all sorts of situations but it's about, it's about walking with them whilst they walk their way through that.

M:  We often say is learning from your mistakes, and that's what it is, but it's the right time.  Striking while the iron is cold.  So it's the right time - not in the middle of the party - not when he's just come home - but actually later when things have calmed down when emotions are calm people are regulated as opposed to dysregulated - for the younger brother and the older brother in this story - isn't it.  It's actually hold on a minute let's have a look at what's happened and how we can learn from this.

C: Yeah.  I think it's a beautiful, beautiful, story of a kind of parenting which we're often not expecting God to demonstrate.  
But having spent some time dwelling with this story that Jesus tells, in order to help us to understand God's parenting.  Actually that's caused me to sort of think back to my own relationship with God.  
And my experience is that the Holy Spirit is hugely relational, and very gentle, and always a safe place to come back to.  And never never hectoring and telling me off, and explaining how to - you know there's not that sense of the God who dwells within us, is not a God of sticks and consequences, but a God of of love and companionship and presence and compassion.

M: and what he wants most of all is a relationship with us, more than sometimes we want a relationship with him.  And he's like the the running father he's standing like looking through the window he's waiting for us to come back.
And again there are consequences of actions absolutely in in life, there is consequences of actions, but the first thing is he's waiting to embrace us to kiss us to welcome and throw us a party.  
Which is a beautiful way of looking at our relationship with God and how he is to everybody.  He's waiting for people to return to him, he's waiting and watching.  Which is beautiful.

C: and sometimes going out and looking 

M: yes 

C: so there are those moments aren't they when you sort of sense an invitation from the divine, in unexpected moments 

M: yeah and sometimes that's through other people 

C: yes absolutely 

M: which is when as a christian you want to be christ to other people who aren't ready perhaps to come back and that's been christ-like to others which gives us something to work on sometimes.
But yes it's just beautiful i just love the idea that he was sitting standing waiting and ready and ran 

C: yes 

M: and ran once he realized the younger son was coming back, he ran 

C: yes an absolute generosity, but allowed the child space.  and so often we need to do that for our kids too that there are times when they are not ready for us to be close, and there is that sense of being allowed space.
But i know that that is the case in my relationship with God too, that when i've kind of haven't paid much attention there is always there is always a sense of welcome.  And i i know in particular when there have been times when life has got really busy and i haven't had time to sort of sit down and pray, when i do then get 20 minutes half an hour to sit, particularly if there's been a bit of a a gap between the last time i managed to do that - the number of times i have just sensed in my spirit this huge huge sense of kind of welcome and home coming.

M: yeah rather than where have you been 

C: yes i've never, i don't know about you, but i've never had that sense that God is saying "and where have you've been?"
M:  Yes i've been waiting um  - no absolutely he accepts us when we're ready 

C: yeah 

M: and that's the same with our children.  We have to be there for them, whatever that looks like.  And be that safe place so that they can come back to us, when they're ready.

And that dropping off takeaways to their door or sending text messages, just how's things going little messages, just to remind them that you're there for them 

C: yeah and many of us don't find accepting intimacy and affection that easy.  Often that's something that we grow into so i know my lads were three and five when they came home as adopted sons and had had quite a tricky time before that and it took quite a while before accepting affection was easy for them.  And before that time i needed to give them space.

And i i had conversations with a lot of people who have found that they don't find understanding and and accepting God's unconditional love terribly easy.  It can be a bit uncomfortable.  It's a little bit like sometimes we find accepting compliments a bit tricky.

and i think there can often be that same kind of dynamic between us and the divine that there is this affection available but we don't find that terribly comfortable.  And if that is something that you are growing into and it doesn't come naturally i think you know don't feel bad about that.  You need space.  God understands that you need space.  And it may be that that intimacy will grow over a long period of time.

When i look back, i know that i would have called myself a christian, i think i had faith from when i was really small, but it was years and years and years and years before that kind of began to grow into an inner sense of connection and affection.  But God has walked with me through that.
And more recently as well as God's fatherhood i have sensed also God's motherhood.  But that's a more intimate kind of connection and that has come much later in life.  But it has helped me to see how my mothering is a reflection of God's mothering of me.
And then you kind of enter a whole other realm of understanding how loved you are.

M: in this story the mother is not mentioned 

C: no 

M: it is probably a story of its time, in that the males are more prominent, you don't know how many other children they have they probably had more children.

C: But i think even in that society Jesus is really making a point - because if it had been a mother then a mother running to welcome her son would not it would not have been counter 

M: no it wouldn't 

C: it would not have been counter-cultural it would not have been shame inducing because what the father is doing in this would have brought societal shame upon him 

M: yeah 

C: if the mother had done that it would have been absolute there would have been no question 

M: so it helps to make people stop and think about what's actually going on in this story isn't it.  Rather than just oh well yeah of course yeah that would happen yeah.

C: yes but the father the one who needs his dignity, who needs his place in society - and we so often find ourselves i think, as parents particularly of parents of kids who struggle, we so often find ourselves feeling shamed.  But this father does not care about being shamed.

M: he wants his relationship with his son to be repaired, wants that back against anything else 

C: absolutely.  And i wonder, i've sometimes wondered, what is it that made the father willing to allow the son to go off with all his money and my guess is that they had come to a point in their relationship where relationally it was the safest thing to do.  That there was something going on that meant that actually if he tried to control him and tried to keep him at home that would have been damaging.

And and particularly i think if you are, if you're the parent of teens with additional needs, that's something which you probably have experienced.  That trying to control trying to keep your child indoors 

M: well it's impossible it's physically impossible physically impossible yes to actually control 

C: yes yeah but quite often you know don't you that actually if i try and lay the law down this is going to go horribly horribly wrong.  So i think there was something, and i know this is an imaginary story, but i i imagine that there was there being something that meant that relationally that was the that was the wisest thing to do at that time.

But that is what God does with us we do not we are not controlled 

M: we have free will 

C: we do 

M: we do which sometimes lands us in a load of mess and a load of pig slop, you know.  But God's still there at the end of it that when we come to our senses, because that's what it basically brought him to.  When we come to our senses we're actually going 'actually God's way actually is the best' and come and be embraced 

C: but all three stories tell us that the love that God has for us, that divine love, is utterly unconditional 

M: and will seek us out 

C: yes. i think that's a really cool story.  And i think there's a lot in it for us both as individuals, and as parents 

M: yeah it's really refreshing to look at it from what's happening with the father, as opposed to we often look at the son's actions, don't we, more than how the response of the father is - other than he welcomed him back.

C: yes and i think for those of us who are wanting our parenting to be relational to see God's divine parenting of us being so relational and so therapeutic and so wise.

It's really interesting the first time i began to notice that this is an absolute case study in how to do therapeutic parenting, i kind of i was looking through it and there's lots and lots of little details, i think most of which we've drawn out they said well yes and he's done that and that's what you're recommended to do by this person and he's done that and that's what this kind of parenting we're recommended to do.

So yeah i think it's i think it's very rich and i think that for all of us if today you are wondering am i loved? yes! absolutely! 
Does God walk with me through this really tricky messy journey of parenthood of fatherhood and of motherhood - yes! - does God know what it feels like when it's all going wrong and when you have allowed your child some freedom and you are waiting you're playing the long game... actually God is sitting with you as you're metaphorically looking out the window hoping that this will come right.

M: yeah definitely 

C: so there we go do you think we've missed anything 

M: we've covered everything
C: yeah
M: in a roundabout way 

C: yes well thank you very much margaret for this conversation it's been great thank you and if this sort of wets your appetite for wanting to know a bit more about our therapeutic parenting course, then you can find that online. i will put a link to that in the show notes.

We run it sort of about three times a year, online.   And particularly it has an emphasis on parenting of children with additional needs of all kinds, really, i think it's most helpful if you've got kids with some kind of neurodiversity but i think there are things in it whatever the issues are.

We do it online so you can join fairly easily and it really links kind of parenting and spirituality 

M: yeah and people who've come on it have said it's a unique course, that that combines it because it's looking at relationship and starting with our relationship, with ourselves, with God, with our children - everybody around us really - and using different therapeutic parenting techniques.  
Seeing what works for you, and your family.
So it's not prescriptive.  I think that's the thing it's people pick what they feel is going to work for them and their family.  And it's a way of building another village

C:  it is which is really lovely, we all often need a new village 

M: yes extend the village 

C: absolutely.  We've done a couple of other podcasts which are looking at other elements of things that we've looked at so looking at pace so playfulness as a spiritual practice and there's a parenting thing.  and then pace is a particular therapeutic parenting techniques.  You can find those.

And if there's something about this idea of God's motherhood that interests you, i have written a book about that called "finding God's feminine side" which you can find on amazon.  And i'll put links to that.

And our website for the parenting stuff is "andbreathe.org.uk".

So i think that's everything so thank you very much.

[Music] thank you hope you enjoyed this episode of the Loved Called Gifted podcast if you'd like to get in touch you can email lovedcalledgifted@gmail.com you can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted.com and that's also the place to go if you're interested in the Loved Called Gifted course or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching thank you for listening