Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted podcast. This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose. I'm your host, Catherine Cowell.

C: So I'm really delighted to be joined by Steve Kenyon for this episode of the podcast. And I know Steve and his family through church. So would you like to introduce yourself?

S: Certainly would. I'm Steve, or Stephen. I'm father of five children, three of whom live with me at home with my wife Katie here in Stoke-on-Trent. And I'm originally from the north of England. And you will probably pick that up very soon from my accent because I do have a Lancashire-Turn of phrase from time to time.

C: So whereabouts in Lancashire did you start off?

S: I was born in Bury, the home of Black Puddings and the famous Bury Market. But it was 1969 because I'm quite proud of just kind of sneaking into the 60s. And we moved while I was still a baby to Oldham. My dad had a job there at Boundary Park Hospital. So I grew up in a place called Shaw, which is in Oldham, specifically a place called Higher Crompton. So it was quite posh.

C: Yeah. So what did your dad do in the hospital?

S: So he worked in capital equipping. So for many years, he was a manager in the supplies department at the hospital. So he was responsible for making sure the equipment and the consumables were delivered to the hospital and then distributed to the wards. And then as things changed in the NHS, it became more about capital equipping for a new hospital build there. He was an administrator who was great with numbers. He didn't pass that on to me. That really took him to retirement.

C: Yeah. And then you've ended up in healthcare in a slightly different way, haven't you?
So do you want to talk about what you do now?

C: Yes. So I manage a team of nurses in a commercial role. So I work for a big medical device manufacturer.

This is an international company. And in the UK, the company produces everything from big pharmacy dispensing robots to syringe drivers and medication delivery systems. And we also have the rather glamorous area of urology. Urology is all about the urinary system. So we look after people who have continence issues and urological issues as well. We deliver services to them on behalf of the NHS. So we work very closely in partnership with the NHS across the UK.
So we've got a nurse in Wales and Glasgow, right down in Bournemouth and then various nurses throughout mainland England as well.
So my job is to manage the team, but also we do a lot of educational development work as well. So at the moment we're looking at national best practice guidelines for urinary catheterisation, which is something that we are desperately in need of in the UK.
So it's quite fulfilling and quite a lot of variety as well. And I've been in that job since 2017 and it's an opportunity as well to make a difference. And I think that's what keeps me there. It's that sense that actually we can improve things. We can make a difference in terms of healthcare.

C: Yes. One of the things that I talk about quite a lot on the podcast is purpose and identity and sort of how do you find your purpose? So I was wondering when you applied for the job, what was it about it that was drawing you?

S: I'll tell you two stories in answer to that. Firstly, becoming a nurse.
I'll be completely honest. This was in 1988. I went into that because it was a stable career. My mum used to be a nurse. I thought this would be a good job to do. They'll always need nurses, no matter where life takes me, I'll be able to get a job.

I can remember the first time I was on a ward and in the side room with somebody who was at end of life and I was 19 years old and I found myself allocated to this person on the day that they died. I didn't think I had it in me. I kind of wanted to run off, but I did it. And afterwards I felt that it was quite fulfilling, but I also felt that I got a lot to learn.
And that was a turning point for me because I realised at that point that I could make a difference to people, to family members, to individuals and people who were at those end stages of life.
And that sense of wanting to make a difference is something that's always stayed with me within nursing. Coming into this role now, I was at a point in 2016 where I was in a senior role in the health service, but immensely frustrated with the politics that often put delays in the process.
We would have a great idea that would be cost neutral, but there would be lots of roadblocks. And I think fighting a lot of those roadblocks was what made me think there must be something that I could do that would have a greater impact.

I'd hate to go to work and there are days when I go to work and I don't feel as though I've made a difference. Like for everybody, it's not every day, it's good and bad, but overall I want to feel as though I've left a legacy and that I've contributed and that somehow I've influenced the people around me and the people that work under me as employees, but also the people that work around me as a team that I've given them something that they can take forward.
I come at it with the viewpoint that I'm working to make my role redundant because when I start a new role, I'm looking at how much is this dependent on me and how much can I, how can we simplify this and how can I make it so that I can do something else and somebody else can take over.
So it's succession planning, but it's also kind of optimizing the system and the way that we do things. So that's something that really floats my boat and I'm always looking for those opportunities.

C: Yeah. It's really interesting listening to you talking about some of the frustrations of being within a big institution and that desire to make a change and seeing where you can make a difference and then not being able to.
I suspect there are quite a lot of people who would identify with that.
It is one of the big challenges for people, isn't it? To be part of a big institution and not be able to shift things.

S: Definitely.

C: But there's also something about who you are that just kind of jogging along with things as they're already going, sort of doesn't quite float your boat.

S: Exactly. If I was on a production line, I would be so bored. I have to do something.

It's only recently I've realized that there's a creative element to my personality, which perhaps comes out in other ways. But in terms of work, we can bring that creativity into work. And as a Christian as well, looking at how can I best represent God in the workplace with the people around me. And you know, he's the father of creation. He's the Lord of creation.

C: I love the fact that you talked about creativity in terms of your role and that desire to see things change and looking for better ways of doing things and different ways of doing things. Because I think there are quite a lot of people who would not think of themselves as creative and that's because they think, well, I couldn't do a painting or play the guitar or make a sculpture. So I'm obviously not one of those creative types.
But yeah, creativity is much, much broader than that, isn't it?

S: It is. Yeah. When I was much younger, I always loved the arty subjects and I just loved the idea of radio. And so quite early on, I used my dad's connection in the hospital to get involved with hospital radio. So I think I was the youngest hospital radio presenter at the time. I was 14. I shouldn't have been there because I was too young, but I was 14 years old and helping out at the hospital radio station.
So the creativity kind of intersected with what would later be part of my career, which was nursing.

C: Yes. Yeah. So where did you take the radio staff? What else have you done with that?

S: I spent a couple of years at the hospital radio station. I started DJing as well. So doing people's weddings and things like that and got a job with, if you may remember this, but Radio Topshop in the eighties and nineties, they used to be in the big top shop and top man stores, a live DJ. So providing musical entertainment for the opening hours of the store, which was, I think it was 10 till 10. It was the Metro center, "Mitterl center Geertshed man", as they used to say, that was a good way to learn the craft. And I loved it.
I just loved the radio, the technical side, the creativity, the ability to bring it together and actually to talk to somebody because radio and podcasts are also very intimate. You know, when you're having a conversation with somebody, it's great to listen to like, like we're doing now. But when you're playing music, you can take them on a journey and it's that ability to take somebody on a journey and have them want to listen and not put them off by what you're saying and how you do it. So that, that for me was the early side from Radio Top Shop. I came back and my mum said, I need to get a proper job. I found myself applying then for nursing thinking this would be great. I could do the nurse, as I said before, earn money and at the same time, perhaps do some more radio work, work at the BBC. I wanted to do a little bit more rather than playing music. I wanted to do a little bit more on the production side, dabbled in interviews, worked for BBC in Stoke for a little bit on their Sunday morning religious programme, did a roadwatch, traffic and travel reports for the Northwest for a period of time, did some presenting on what was then Piccadilly Key 103 in Manchester, doing the nighttime programme. So I was presenting a nighttime programme and then during the day doing a district nursing placement. So I wasn't getting much sleep and very quickly the nursing took over because I had to, I had to apply myself to manage that. Nearly 10 years later went to study theology and as part of the placement went to work at UCB, which is Christian radio station, National Christian Radio Station, which is based in Stoke-on-Trent. So I found myself in the post-room on student placement at the start of the placement and then presenting the talk show in the afternoon by the end of the placement. And so I stayed with UCB for a few years and then went to work for Cross Rhythms and I still have a hand in some production work with other little projects that are going on. But that's my kind of creative radio background.

C: Yeah, quite a broad sweep. You said that you were really comfortable kind of talking on the microphone to people and kind of making a connection and taking people on a journey.

S: For me it's very important to be genuine and to be honest. The times where I've felt I've, and there have been times where I feel as though I've misrepresented myself to people in the workplace and it doesn't feel a very comfortable place to be. As a man and certainly some of my peers at school being genuine and honest wasn't something that was particularly valued. In fact, I think early on it was quite tough because I was who I was. I didn't want to be anybody else. I know what I liked and I wasn't going to go along with the crowd because that's what was expected of me. So I had a bit of a tough time and I think in terms of my Christian walk as well, you've just got to be honest. You've just got to be yourself.

C: Takes a lot of pressure off, doesn't it?

S: It does, yeah, massively.

C: It can also be really terrifying, particularly when you think actually who I am might not be approved of in this circumstance, but equally trying to put over a persona that doesn't feel like it's absolutely rooted in who you are creates a huge amount of pressure, doesn't it?

S: It does, yeah. And I think when you first meet somebody, there is always that pressure, isn't there? You know, maybe if I'm in an educational setting, I want to come across as somebody who's educated, who's really, you know, quite high brow. Or if I'm in a church setting, and I think this is very current for me at the moment as a member of the worship team, how am I coming across? Is this genuine? Am I the same when I'm stood singing and playing a guitar as I am when I'm there on another week not playing and interacting with people?

That's something that's kind of been a theme for me. Actually, I've got to be real. I've got to be genuine. I will say to Katie, my wife, Katie, look, how did that come across?

And that can sow a lot of self-doubt as well and make you quite, in my case, it can be quite difficult to push things forward.

If we think in terms of worship leading, I look at the church and we've got a lot of people there who've been Christians for a long time, who will be familiar with the songs and with the church worship setting. We've got people who are brand new to the faith and haven't got any church background whatsoever. So this could be very alien to them and all kind of shades in between. Some people know all the 80s songs, but they don't like any of the new songs. And of course, worship isn't just about songs. It's what we do. It should be what we do in our daily life. Balancing all of those competing thoughts and feelings, comments. It's analogous to what I do in my workplace as well, where there's lots of competing things to try and judge and manage.

C: So do you think this deep-rooted sense of I need to be Steve, I need to be who I am, I need to be genuine, I need to make genuine connections with people. I'm wondering if that is freeing you up to be in a position to take on that kind of feedback from all over the place. So part of your challenge, it sounds to me, is because you are settled enough in who you are to take on board the feedback and the potential criticism means that you end up with a lot more of it than you would do otherwise. Because lots of people don't ask.
I was really struck when you said you were talking about saying to Katie, "how did I come across?" There are very many people, Steve, who never ask that question.

S: Yeah, yeah. In the worship setting, you know, whether it's a power cut on a Sunday morning, it's how we can turn that into an opportunity.

C: We're back to creativity, aren't we?

S: Yeah, yeah. I actually like the challenge. I'm in a position where I like the feedback and the voices. In fact, in my work, I ask for feedback all the time. Not, you know, 'am I doing okay?' But on specific projects, you know, what do you think about this? And I think it's really important to get that engagement from people.
And in the church also.

I met Felicia, who's the minister of the church.
I think she's been on your podcast in the past, hasn't she?

C: She has, yes. That's definitely worth a listen.

S: And just connected then, I thought, wow, this is great. The right place to be. And it was a different format of church as well from what we used to. I got it straight away. I thought this is brilliant. You know, on one week you've got a meal, the other week you've got a traditional service. So easy to invite people to the meal, so easy to build relationships with people and to introduce them. But, you know, what did Jesus say? You know, you've got to love people. That's the, you know, that's his commandment to love one another.

And Jesus spent a lot of time eating with hospitality, with people. And what better way to do it than to just dedicate a Sunday morning to putting a meal on for people, talking with people and building relationships. So I was really excited about it.

And then since then it's been a journey for me, a growth. But that was the biggest change for me, I think, was just finding the place where we belonged. And I say we, meaning Katie and myself, because the way God will speak to us and guide us, we know there's always going to be agreement. And sometimes we might be out of sync with something for some months.

Other times it'll be straight away. This is what we've got to do. But that's our barometer, because if we were at odds with a decision, then we wouldn't act on it. That means we've got to go off and reflect more, pray about it. But I think that's the biggest, the biggest example of change for us is since joining the church.

C: I think when we're part of a church at any point, you know, quite often for many of us we move from one place to another. And there's always something new to learn. And there are parts of ourselves, I think, that develop in different communities of Christians. And I'm just wondering which parts of who God is and how you connect to the divine, what has grown and shifted for you in your time at New Life Family Church?

S: I think a real sense of the person of Jesus. When we go through difficult times in life, a bereavement or a loss of a marriage, it's very, it's very difficult to go through. It affects you deeply. And it can change your outlook. We might reflect on those things, but actually going back and reliving that, it's not something that I want to do. I don't want to be in that position again, where having, you know, had gone through the process of divorce a few years before I met Katie, where it was tremendously challenging to think about the children and how they would be affected. And for me, the emotion of that is still there.

It doesn't take much to think about it. And for, you know, for me to feel quite emotional.

But in the same way, I'm finding now that looking at the life of Jesus, learning more about him, being closer to him, has a similar effect in that I'm thinking, my goodness, he's just, you know, in the story, in the Gospels, he's raised Lazarus from the dead.

But then he's talking about what's going to happen to him and giving those clues to the disciples. They don't understand what he's saying at the time. They don't, just don't get it. And being on that journey is an emotional journey for me, surprisingly. I can read Lord of the Rings and love it. That's one of my favorite books. But reading the Gospels and getting closer, it's a real yearning to be close to Jesus.

And I think that's the thing for me that's probably changed most whilst I've been here. And I've been to Bible college, you know, I've done the spring missions and I've, you know, I've led worship in the past, I've done all that stuff. But for us at the moment, for me particularly, there's that just that yearning to be closer and that yearning for more and to want other people to see it.

Sometimes I sit here and I'll say to the family, look at this. An example is watching The Chosen and I've recently got into to watching The Chosen, which is the TV series on Amazon Prime.

C: I think bits of it have been on Netflix and it's had its own thing. So for people who don't know, The Chosen is the story of Jesus basically and his journey with his disciples, isn't it?

S: Yeah. And I entered into this thinking, is this going to be right? Is this really going to depict the gospels? Is it going to be hijacked by some of the narrative? But I found myself drawn to it because actually what they do is they have to put a backstory in for certain parts of people's lives.
It starts off with Mary Magdalene before she met Jesus. And we know from the gospel that she was delivered from seven demons by Jesus. So it will, it will start off with that and then it will bring these two points together. They told me she meets Jesus and then becomes a follower.
And you also see other, other women in the Bible as well. So like Susanna, Joanna, lots of Marys, far too many Marys to keep track of sometimes.
But it was specifically, tears were pouring down my face because we'd met this guy called Gaius who was a Roman centurion who was responsible for helping to support collecting of taxes in Capernaum. And you follow this journey through this narrative and they do try to get factual accuracy. We saw this journey of him actually watching and observing Jesus from afar, engaging with some of the disciples. But it was that point, that story of him meeting Jesus and asking Jesus if he could heal his son and saying, I don't need you to come to my house because I know your word is all that this needs. That was just too much for me.
And I was saying, did you see that? Did you see that? What do you think about their son? They're all doing something else.

C: So what was it about that that was, that really got to you?

S: It was, it was the sense of love that, that Jesus has. But it was also the transformation of that person. But he's met the one person, the one person that can, that can forgive, the one person that can unlock that and give him eternal life. And it was that, it was that point of realization that this is God. For me, it's just, I don't know, it's just super emotional.

C: So there's something in seeing Jesus's love for people that, that is drawing you. So it sounds like there's a deeper invitation to walk with that Jesus of love.

S: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. When I became a Christian, it was in 1984 and it was Billy Graham's Crusade Mission England. I'd just turned 15 at the time. And this sense of love that I felt, you know, it's a huge stadium full of thousands of people. I'd got 30 peers from school who'd come in on a coach load to Anfield. There might as well have been no one else in the stadium. It's a bit like, you know, a romantic meal. You know, Katie and I have had this when we first met. We occasionally have that now if we get a chance to go out for a meal with children and all of life's busyness. But where you, you know, you can be sat in a restaurant with all sorts of things happening around you, but you just, all you can see is the person in front of you with that sense of togetherness and oneness.

And it was that love that I felt at Mission England as well. That sense of this is why I love God. This is why I want Jesus in my life. It's fait accompli. You've got to go down there. And I remember walking down those steps, being given a booklet, you know, I accept, I believe, I confess, praying that prayer and then having a nurture group afterwards.

And you know, when we went back, I remember interestingly, and this is where the creative thing comes in, they had three nights of coaches going from our school. I didn't want to be born again on the second night that I went because I'd already been born again, but I wanted to go back and record it because at the time I was doing hospital radio. So I remember taking my little portable cassette recorder and recording the meeting. I'm sure I was breaching copyrights. I don't know. I think the singer was Sandy Patty and I managed to get all of Billy Graham's sermon. And I remember going back super excited, recorded it, playing it for me mom at the kitchen table. So she got to hear it. And then when I went to the guys at the hospital radio on a Saturday, which was my regular thing, say, Oh, it's a Billy Graham. Have a listen to this. And they played some of it on the radio as well.

But yeah, it's that sense of love that draws me and keeps me and the joy of seeing somebody else in that position to have that encounter with Jesus.

C: Because we have the Holy Spirit within us, don't we? And so as you're interacting with people, you will have that sense of God's love for them.

S: Yeah, absolutely. The system of work and the ethos of the company that I work for. This is a company that actually does support Christian ministry, Mercy Ships. It's a big sponsor.

So there's a lot of support that goes on. It makes it easier because the company is very much about caring for people and developing people. And there's a lot of effort put into servant leadership as well. So, so it helps because there's a baseline there within work.

But for me, for me personally, we're a team. And when I sit down with a member of my team and I have to do appraisals on an individual basis, it's really important that they feel valued and that we're equals to me because the hierarchy only comes in in terms of the management process. I'm responsible for this person and for what they do. I'm accountable for their actions as well. The best thing I can do is to care for them and to help them to grow and develop themselves. And there are times where we can actually talk about faith, although they are few and far between. But what we will talk about is family. For example, actually family comes before work, but it is just showing that love for people and that care for people. Which is very difficult at times, especially when the business comes along and says, actually, we need to cut back on numbers here. We have to let somebody go.

Or if there's a disciplinary situation, which again, it's very, it doesn't very often happen, but if we did have that, then you have to be somebody else. But then you do it, you do it with honour and you fulfil your responsibilities before God and your responsibilities to the company as well. So it's a, again, it's a work in progress, I think, which is great because you can always improve. You can always do things better than you currently do.

C: I'm hearing a real parallel as you're describing having one-to-one conversations with your staff and that love and that care for that person in front of you between that and your description of seeing Jesus in the chosen, having his conversation with Gaius. I don't think Jesus particularly talked about faith with Gaius either, did he?

S: No.

C: But he, but he connected with him and, and loved him and, and responded to his needs.

S: Yeah. And it's, it's kind of what comes after, isn't it? You know, what did the centurion do after? We don't know, there's so much in the gospel. We don't know. And that's why they think creative things such as the chosen on TV and interpretation of what those things might've looked like. You know, Jesus' ministry was, was around three years. You can read a gospel in what, a couple of hours. So there's a lot condensed into that time. So there's a lot of things we don't know, but sometimes just thinking, putting yourself in the position of whoever that might be, Gaius, reflecting on the gospels and some of those characters.

Okay. I've just been healed from, you know, an issue of blood that's, that's kept, kept me a pariah in my community for, for many years I was ousted. I was permanently unclean.

Jesus has just healed me and taken that away. What next? What happens next? How do you move on from that point? And that kind of question of what next is, is fascinating to think about.

I used to think things happen so quickly in the New Testament, in the times of Jesus, particularly Acts of the Apostles. How many times do we hear people say, well, it's not like up to the apostles. We don't see people being healed. We don't see miracles. We don't, but actually again, that's a condensed timeline. And if you look around the world, you can see examples of miracles, of healings, and you can see them in your own community as well, that God's hand in the midst of the church, whether it's a connection to somebody, whether it's, it could be a healing, it could be emotional healing. It could be just as simple as somebody being able to come into a building and sit down and have a meal. That could be a huge achievement for somebody to be able to do that.

C: Yes. Yeah. Can we take a bit of a pivot to something else? You're talking about school and being a DJ and how being yourself was sometimes a bit of a challenge. And I was wondering how that genuineness and being a man, how those things have kind of tied together and where the challenges might've been. I kind of had this little moment of thinking, I wonder if the being a DJ, although that came out of your desire, how much that was a bit of a relief, I've got something cool going on.

S: Yeah. The school culture was all around for the men, particularly a pecking order. There was always somebody that was at the top of the tree and I always felt like I was right down at the bottom. You know, if I was going to fight somebody, it would be probably the person that I thought was the weakest person. And school kids even today can be so cruel to each other. Can't they? I think we've got very different issues these days, but certainly in, you know, growing up in the Northwest of England in the eighties, it was kind of sense that if proper lads can fight, you can imagine what you would be called if you said, I wanted, I didn't want to be a florist, but if you said you did, no, I want to be a welder. I want to do something macho, big. So there was a lot of that and I just got sick of it.

I thought I couldn't see the point in it. And I think that's why I ended up working and doing voluntary work in hospital radio because I was mixing with people who were in their early twenties, but upwards to, you know, to retirement age. Funnily enough, some of my school colleagues became friends and came to do voluntary work with me and we had a friendship group. So it did work, but it was difficult. And I think in the nineties, I would have classed myself as a nineties man.

C: So tell us what you mean by a nineties man. What's a nineties man?

S: A nineties man is somebody who would be in a marital situation and actually seeing your partner as an equal and very practical things like being able to do the ironing and happy to do the ironing and share some of those so-called domestic tasks. Now I know this comes into culture. There's lots of cultural issues here to contend with, but certainly in the culture that I grew up in, which was white English, Northern kind of working class slash middle, current to middle class kind of area. It was the woman's role in the home to keep the home. Man's job is to go out and earn the money. When you're married to somebody who does the same job as you, i.e. a nurse, that analogy doesn't work, does it? You can't, you can't do that. You've got to think. And so, so I, I kind of gravitated towards this idea that actually I am more sensitive. I can have conversations that are meaningful.

I don't want to go out, I mean, you know, 30 pints with the lads on a Thursday night, although I do have male friends, but that kind of cultural stuff that I rebelled against it very much. I don't know. Should we call it 90s 2.0? I don't know who we are in 2025.

I don't even think about it now. It's just muscle memory. It's just who I am. And you know, Katie and I are in all ways equal in terms of the way we bring up our children, in terms of our family. We both serve God. We're both passionate for him. We love our church. We absolutely love hospitality. You know, when we're having a rubbish day, but maybe the children have been arguing and something's not gone quite right. A burst pipe, for example, and somebody comes to the door and you think, oh, I've got to be hospitable now. But then within 10, 15 minutes, I am so glad you came. We've realised this has happened so many times that actually we just love being with people.
Having that shared journey has been great, but I don't think it would work if I wasn't who I am. But yeah, so even like today, we have things that we're good at. So Katie at the moment is doing her masters. So I'm really excited that she's doing this. It's a lot of work. She's coming up to a handed date.

So childcare becomes my responsibility. I'm excited about it. It's what I do. I've just got to help her because I've been in that position. I know what it's like. Why would I not? So it's not even an issue. So it's like I say, muscle memory, I just do it. I don't know if that's unusual, but it's certainly the way I operate.

C: It's not unique, but I think when you look back at sort of the history of gender equality, the first thing to shift was the sense that women shouldn't be limited to doing things around the home and being the housewife and that there ought to be opportunities to go and get degrees. And I mean, when we were growing up, there were still lots and lots of colleges in Oxford and Cambridge that would not accept women.

I remember my mum telling me that when my parents got their first mortgage, they would only take my dad's wage into account. They wouldn't take hers into account. And she was a nurse and she was earning more than him.

But I think the thing that's been slower to shift actually has been men taking an equal partnership in the home, but it makes such a difference, doesn't it?

S: It does. Yeah. We were stunned actually just to look back. We've been together for 20 years, but it seems to have gone by in an instant. It's, you know, there's still that freshness and that newness that we have, which is amazing. And I think sometimes when you find the right person, it's like the Wizard of Oz, you know, going from black and white to color suddenly, "Oh, this is how it's meant to be." So yeah, our relationship is going strong, but it feels like it's been five minutes, even though we've got, you know, older children now going to university and stuff.

C: There are people who would say that a family unit will be very disordered if the man isn't in charge.

S: I don't think so. I think I can think of lots of examples where that isn't the case. I think you should work equally and in partnership and together, ideally as a team. But there are instances due to illness where you've got no choice. The woman has to be in charge.

If you're talking about spiritual leadership, I think people probably misunderstood what Jesus taught us in that respect.

I'll be really honest. I do struggle with the idea that some of the church approach to how this is applied, you know, I know some denominations don't allow women in ministry, women preaching, and they've got very clear ideas about the woman's role in the home, but I think you misunderstood Jesus.

I would never be in a situation where I would be saying to Katie, "As your spiritual head, I am asking you, or I'm commanding you to do this. God has told me, you're subservient to me. You have got to do X, Y, and Z." That would be absolutely unthinkable for me to do that.

When I look at the person of Jesus and who he was, and I look at the women in his ministry, the fact that he broke the mold so many times in a culture that was a very patriarchal culture at the time, I think he's a really good person to focus on. And so for me, again, it's not something I think about. It's just something I do. And that is, we are in this together.

We're in this journey together and we work. And some of the people that I admire have that same approach. And we see it, you know, the people in the church or the people that I meet who maybe aren't Christians, you know, who have that approach. Actually, we do this together. And I think it's great witness for the children as well and for the family.

Do I want my children to grow up seeing me as an autocratic husband, as somebody that lays down... and I know it can be a controversial subject, but it doesn't need to be. It really doesn't need to be. And I think we just need to focus on Jesus. And it gets tied in with culture as well. So if we think about first century culture, which is very different from modern 2025, all I know is for me and this house, this is what I want my children to see. I want them to see that actually we work together equally. We share decision making.

And actually in God, if we disagree on something, particularly if it was a big decision, then that's when we need to wait. That's when we need to wait because usually the answer will come with time.

C: And that's so wise.

S: That's my most frequent prayer for wisdom. Lord give me the wisdom.

C: And it completely puts a light to the idea that you need somebody to be in charge in a marriage because what happens when you disagree, somebody has to make the decision. But actually to say the fact that we don't agree means that we need to wait because there's more discerning to do, I think is a really helpful take on that. I mean, I've always thought there's not that many situations to be honest, when there's two people you get that stuck. I think generally there is a route through, isn't there?

S: Yeah, you don't want to be in that situation where I've seen this happen. We have been a couple of times, we're not talking - why. And it's usually some really petty thing that's happened. You know, like you forgot to bring the washing in when I told him to. So we've not been speaking for the last week.
I mean, it's, it's ridiculous scenarios sometimes, isn't it in day to day life. But, but I think the stresses and the challenges come when we least expect them very often.

And I'm also mindful that there are people, you know, people in our friendship group, in our prayer group that are under terrific stress and terrific pressure in their relationships due to its problems in the home and family members. I often think, you know, if you put Katie and I in a different circumstance, would we be the same? You know, if we had to manage life as our friends do dealing with what they have to deal with. So it does, it does bring about certain amounts of humility.

C: Yes.

S: It does humble you, I think, to see the success of the people in.

C: I'm putting in mind of somebody called Gregory Boyle. He's a Jesuit priest, but he works with gang members in Los Angeles. And he talks about standing in awe of what people have to carry, rather than in judgment of how they carry it.

S: That summarises it perfectly. And I think, I think that is the case. And so many people carry so much.

C: Yeah, yeah. As you've been talking, the thought that has gone through my head a number of times is just an awareness that you walk about the place as somebody who's walking with Jesus.

There is a sense of God's presence with you. So I wonder how much of your communion with God is just unspoken, that you've been walking together for so long that you don't necessarily need to be saying it all the time.

S: I actually think that's probably the nicest compliment I've ever had. I feel quite emotional. There are certain people that I can think of that have walked into the room and you get a sense of love from them and a sense of God's presence.
And if I can embody that and be that, then that's something that's quite amazing, really. It's certainly not how I see myself, but I would hope that others see it.

C: Oh gosh, yeah, absolutely.

S: But yeah, it is that sense of, you know, we are quite critical of ourselves, aren't we, sometimes. And this is why it is important to be around other people, because other people will see you differently. And if you can get beyond the small talk of a Sunday morning or the small talk of, you know, where work situation, you can often go deeper. Yeah.

C: The last podcast that I did was inspired by something I've got on my wall, which I had a God moment in a cathedral gift shop quite a lot of years ago now. And the thing which really touched me was this plaque, which just said, "Bidden or not Bidden, God is present." And that was at a time in my life when pressing in and doing all of those things, it was just too much going on just to find the brain space or, you know, sometimes it's really, really hard. And what that was inviting me into was just walking with the awareness that "Bidden or not Bidden, God is here. Already God is here. God is now. God is present."

S: Yeah, absolutely.

C: And there were times when the only thing I'd got the strength to say was "Bidden." Yeah. And I think that's kind of left a legacy of just being aware that God is there anyway.

S: Well, yeah, sometimes a word is all it takes, isn't it?

C: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I got slightly miffed with a poster outside our church just around the corner from us the other day. And I can't remember, I'm going to forget exactly what it said, but it said something like, "God is closer than you think. You just need to get nearer to see him." And I thought, you don't! God is so close. God is closer than your next breath." All of this, you need to get nearer. Yeah, right. How much closer could you be? Honestly, how much closer could you be?

S: Absolutely. Yeah.

C: The last question I feel I ought to ask you is just this. I wonder what has changed in your understanding or your image, your view of God. So how is the God you know now different from the God you met all of those years ago? And I know in one sense God isn't, but what is it that you know more deeply?

S: Big question. I was first introduced to the idea of who Jesus was before I went to Billy Graham through Franco Zeffirelli's Jesus of Nazareth in the seventies. I think Robert Powell played Jesus. Yeah. Kind of undid some of it when he was working with Jasper Carrot the comedian in his TV series. But that really impacted me as a child. And it feels as though I've come home to that position, you know, with both with my first encounter, personal encounter with Jesus through Billy Graham when I became a Christian. I would say that if anything, my sense of who God is now is strong because I tried to see who Jesus is.

C: Yeah.

S: In a much clearer way. God isn't remote anymore, but actually God's, as you were saying, just God is there all the time. So it is that sense of intimacy I think that's changed over the years and a strong sense of God's true forgiveness as well.
Maybe the early days I was looking for the feeling, you know, oh my goodness, I feel the Holy Spirit in my, that's what that burning sensation is. Now I just want to be with him more. And so I think that's what's changed. It's just my relationship with him as I've matured, as has matured also. And things have become a little bit clearer than they were.

Don't know if that answers the question.

C: Oh, it absolutely does. Yes. Yeah. That sense of intimacy. And you've talked about that on a number of occasions.

S: I think it gives, it can give hope to people as well for me at the moment. It's trying to pray more, trying to really worship more on my own. Spending a lot of time just worshiping at the moment. I say a lot of time. I mean, the kids don't get to bed till 10 o'clock.
We're usually going to prepare for the next day's work. So it might be, it might be like half an hour on a Thursday night. Trying to start the day off right. You know, so not going straight to BBC news or to, you know, whatever it is. But actually, thank you Lord, thank you for joining me today. Praying for wisdom. For me, that's, you know, that's what it looks like at the moment.

And then praying together. Katie and I learning to do more together and pray together as well, which is important.

C: Thank you so much, Steve. That's been really good.

S: Thank you, Catherine. It's been a really, really great chance for me to reflect. Thank you.

C: You're very welcome. And thank you.

C: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Steve Kenyon.
Before we go I just wanted to let you know that the audiobook version of "Finding God's Feminine Side" is now out, which is really exciting.
So if you were planning to get my book "Finding God's Feminine Side" but you weren't sure you had the energy to read it, you can get the audio version and I will read it to you.
It's available on Amazon or on Audible.

[Music] Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Loved Called Gifted podcast. If you'd like to get in touch, you can email lovedcalledgifted@gmail.com. You can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted.com. And that's also the place to go if you're interested in the Loved Called Gifted course, or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching.

Thank you for listening.

[music fades out]