[Music] Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted podcast. This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose. I'm your host, Catherine Cowell.
[music fades]

C: So I'm absolutely delighted to be here with Lucie Labadie in your fabulous converted chapel.

L: Welcome.

C: Do you want to introduce yourself?

L: Yes, I'm Lucie. I come from France originally. I've been in England for 11 years now.
I'm married. I've got three boys and I've been a dance artist for 20 years and I am now in a bit of a transition.
I work for a charity as well, part-time.
So I guess, yeah, it's the transition in my life between dance artists and maybe the next step.

C: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool.

L: Yeah.

C: We got chatting the other weekend about a show that you did a little while ago called Let It Bleed!, sort of based around menstruation and the menstrual cycle. And I'm very aware that as a woman, kind of, I'm now sort of post-menopause, there's a whole pile of stuff about how we function as women and how that kind of fits into our cycle that I just have known absolutely nothing about.

L: Yeah.

C: So I would be really fascinated to know more about how you ended up investigating this and how you've ended up sort of exploring that artistically.

So when did you become aware that there was stuff to learn about women's cycles that you hadn't kind of known?

L: I guess it was a few years ago before COVID, I used to go to a woman's circle and the lady there, she's a specialist of menstrual cycle awareness. So she was talking about it and just advised me to read a book which called "Wild Power".

C: Wild Power.

L: Which I advise everybody to read, Men and Women. It's an amazing book. It's been written by Red School and Red School, they've got a website and they are a big organisation about women, menstrual cycle and menopause as well.

They've got another book called "Wise Power", which is about premenopause and menopause. Which just explain in different level, I suppose, what happened to women's body with like, it's quite spiritual, but also just medical, what is actually happening in the body with the hormones and everything.
And just reading that book and just feeling it in my body, because obviously it's there. Everybody know, you kind of go with the flow, but I guess if you haven't read about it or not being educated on the subject, you ignore it and then you probably think you're crazy once a month. And then a few days later, you say, "Oh no, I'm fine actually."
A few days after you think, "Oh, I'm really happy now." And then it's just like you carry on, it's a cycle. And then just to read about it and knowing those different stages, it make me feel, I suppose, normal.
And it's just, I think it does allow women to be the way they are.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

L: Because society has been designed by men really.
And then there is no space for those ebb and flow of the cycle, I suppose, at work, for example.
You can't really say, "I'm not coming today because I'm bleeding," or because different reason around the cycle.
Maybe one day. It's getting better, but it's not quite there yet.

C: Yeah. So I think the bit that we're all fairly familiar with is the fact that we bleed for a number of days each month. So we get that bit and quite a lot of women have a lot of discomfort around that time and quite a lot of women find themselves to be a bit more emotionally vulnerable just before.

L: Yeah.

C: So I think people are, familiar with the whole idea of sort of premenstrual tension, but I have to say, I don't know very much about the rest.
So do you want to talk us through what the cycle is? That would be brilliant.

L: Yeah. So a good way to think about it is to call it inner seasons, like the season of the year.
So you've got the winter, which is when we bleed. Then you've got the spring and then you've got the summer, the autumn, and then you go back to the winter.

So the winter is day one. So when you start really bleeding, when it's really heavy. So that's day one until it depends on the woman. Obviously there is no right or wrong into the menstrual cycle. We are all different, but I would say around day six, day one to day six, that's the winter. So that's when you're bleeding and you probably feel tired. You feel like you want to stay in bed. You want to watch Netflix and eat Chocolate.
It's like a fresh, it gives you a fresh start because you let everything go. You surrender to the bleeding so you can actually rest.
Well, that's what you, that's what you're supposed to do. But you know, with life sometimes it's really hard, but I think if you can stay in bed for the first two days or at least be more slow, that does have an impact after, in the rest of the cycle to the autumn, for example. So just before you bleed, if you've been rested in the period before, you shouldn't feel so angry and so frustrated and agitated before the period, if that makes sense.

C: Yes. Yeah, yeah, it does.
So what do you do in that kind of winter season?

L: Well, what I would love to do is literally to just stay in bed, go for walks, be on my own. I think that's important to take that time to just step out of society. You know, like there is that thing of the red tent. It's like in the ancient time. I'm not even sure that's actually a thing.

C: I think there is something about the fact that women were regarded as being unclean during their period, so they would sort of, they would stay away.

L: Yeah.

C: I think the idea of the red tent is a sort of a reclaiming of this idea of, well, if you're going to call women unclean and they need to go away, yeah, well, they can be together in a red tent and look after one another. Yeah. And have space away from everybody else and resting.

L: Exactly. I think it's a misinterpretation of the cycle, because you're not unclean at all. You're just bleeding.

C: Yeah.

L: But you should rest and you should be out of, you should allow that time to be on your own, to reset and to just take your time to just be. And it's a very good time as well if you've got a problem, if you've got a decision to take, to bleed on it. So to wait.

C: Okay.

L: Until you bleed. And around day four, that's when you've got the most intuition in the cycle. And often if you just sit and be quiet on that day, the answer comes.

C: Oh, that's fascinating.

L: It does work. Yeah.

C: So you've done that?

L: I've done that. Yeah. Loads of time. I do. I do every, like, even at work, if I've got an application for funding to do, or I will wait until I am in the autumn to send it, because that's when, like, my mind is like, I'm very efficient. I don't mind working hard and I'm very determined.

C: Yeah.

L: Yeah. I like to edit stuff, like make everything clean, everything like, yeah, be busy. And yeah. So if you live with your cycle, it makes like life easier, I found.
So we've got that winter. And then day six, you've got a transition again - every woman are different. And then you've got the transition to the spring. So you feel a bit more clean because you feel fresh. You feel like you've been cleaned, cleansed from what happened in the cycle before. It's not cleaning your body, it's cleaning your mind.

C: Yeah.

L: You feel the need to maybe see some friends or do some stuff, but not too much. It's not like the full summer yet. You still want to stay at home a little bit, but you are pretty socialize a bit more, work a bit more. You can take stuff a bit more on.

C: So the springtime is sort of after you've bled and you're sort of have that sense of kind of coming back to life.

L: Yes, exactly that. Coming back to life, cleanse, I would say, and stronger.
If you bled properly by resting, you will feel stronger in the spring.

And then you've got the summer around day 12, just before the ovulation. So you ovulate around 14.

C: Yeah.

L: So it's day 12, and that's where you're like really happy, very energetic. You want to see everybody, you want to party, you want to do loads of things. You can do everything.

C: Yeah.

L: And then that's where sometimes we take too much on and then we can be very tired in the autumn.
It's a yes season, like yes to everything. And yeah, it's a bit excessive sometimes. It's like a spiral with on stop for a few days, but it's a nice feeling.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

L: And then around day 21, you've got the autumn.

C: Yeah.

L: And that's when you start to go back to home a little bit more, go back to yourself, like you would do in the autumn in the season, really.
You can be very efficient. You know what you want. And again, you are very intuitive there. So if there is something will bother you. In that season, that's going to bother you even more because it's coming back and it's like your body will tell you, you need to sort that before you bleed.

C: Yeah.

L: And then that's where you should start to take a step out of the world and you can't do that often. So that's why women get frustrated at the time of the cycle. It's not natural. Well, it can be natural to be very angry depending on the level of hormones, but most of the women, if they could just say tonight, I'm going to shut the door of my bedroom and I'm not going to do anything. You will not have this anger and this rage just before your period.

C: Yeah.

L: Yeah. And then you start again.

C: It's really interesting. You're talking about intuition in that sort of autumn phase, which is also where the kind of the premenstrual tension happened. And looking back, I can remember that quite often, I would be really bothered about things that at other times in the month wouldn't bother me very much at all. So it sounds as if from what you're saying that actually it would have been worth listening to those things.

L: Definitely. It was probably bothering you, but you didn't realize it because life is easier for the rest of the cycle. At that time of the month, it's good to listen to yourself because your body is telling you, it's almost like a primitive state.

C: Yeah.

L: You go back to really authentic being, I suppose.

C: Yeah. Yeah. So those things that were really getting to me, I might not have wanted to have particularly acted on them very emotionally, but it might've been really good to kind of notice. Okay. So what is it? What is it that's getting to me and why might that be getting to me? What is my intuition telling me rather than doing what I used to do, which was in a week or so, this isn't going to bother me. Yeah.

L: Yeah.
We won't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
It's really interesting because women know, even if they're not educated, they know. I remember my mum telling my brother off because he was my little brother and always like trying to wind me up. And if I was on my period, she will tell him leave her alone. Like, because she's, you know, she's on her period and we need to leave her alone. So just the fact that she said that, that means she knew I had to be on my own, but she, she was not educated around the menstrual cycle. So I found that really interesting.
Woman knows.

C: Yeah. So how is your life different having learnt about this stuff?

L: It's a lot slower because I will wait for stuff. I will wait for the right time to do what I want to do.
And he teach me to take a step back, which I didn't before.

C: Yeah.

L: So it's probably more clever and more understanding and be more gentle with myself, I suppose.

C: Yeah.

L: Yeah. Everything take longer, but then everything is better. If that makes sense.

C: Yeah. Yeah. And how do you notice what's changed sort of in yourself? How was your view of yourself and the feeling of being Lucie? How has that shifted?

L: So I've got a journal, and I journal every day where I just record how I feel. And then it's been years now. So I recognize and I know, I know where I am at. I don't have to count the days anymore. I don't know exactly what day, but I know which season I am and I know what is coming and then I feel, feel like that. I'm like, oh, that's why.
Yeah. But journaling is a very good thing because then you can read back and then you can see there is a pattern into the feelings and how you feel. And yeah, so that's interesting.

C: That is absolutely fascinating.
So tell me about the "Let It Bleed!” show. What was your inspiration for that and what made you want to do it?

L: So the inspiration really was the book that I read. I wanted to show that on stage. So I've approached women who I knew were journaling and were aware of the cycle and I've asked them if I could use their journal, which was really interesting. And I've chose women from different ages. One woman in her 30s, 40s, 50s, and the last one, I think she was in her 70s and she was following the cycle of the moon.

C: Okay.

L: Yeah. So that was really interesting because she had obviously a lot of wisdom.
And then I started just like a research development project first with the dancer.
And then when we've done that, I decided to go further and I decided that I wanted a composer and I wanted an actor and I wanted the script of the journal. So the actor to play the script and the dancer to translate the script into her body and the movement. And then I've been lucky enough to be offered residency in Ireland for two weeks. So we went for two weeks just on our own. We had two dance studios in a beautiful farm in the middle of nowhere. It was really gorgeous. And we just worked together to create that piece. And that's how "Let it Bleed!” was born.

C: I was really interested by that sort of development process because you showed me a little video that talked about kind of how all that happened. And what struck me was just how rooted you all were kind of in the earth and in nature, in the process of creating it.
It talked about kind of having bonfires together and being out in the countryside and in the woods. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?

L: Yeah. It's an amazing place that you can't do anything else. Yeah. In Ireland in the middle of nowhere, they've got a big forest in the land. So you can go for a walk every day. And they've got two dance studio, but they also have different rooms where you can go out and you can think and create. And it's just an amazing place to be creative.
Yeah. So in the morning, everybody was doing what they wanted to do. Everybody choose to either to go for a walk or to go for a run or do something outside.

And then we come together, we'd have a checking, a cycle checking. So to say what day we were in and how we were feeling and then starting the work. And we'll do a checking at the end.

Yeah. We had bonfire during the full moon. We went wild swimming as well. That was really good.

Yeah. It was just really interesting. And it went really well. It was not, there was one or two days where we got stuck a little bit, but I guess it's normal. And then it was quite easy because I think everybody was very passionate about the subject. Yeah. "Let it bleed!” it's an insight of the cycle. That's what I wanted it to be. I think it is.

C: Yes. Yeah. And a bit of a celebration, really.

L: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Because it's a power. It's an amazing power to create life for a start every month. I think that's amazing. It's so perfect the way we are and what we go through in a cycle that if we use it well, it does bring wisdom. It does bring peace.

You really feel powerful and more assertive. Yeah.

C: More rooted in your own body and how it works.

L: Definitely. In an authentic way.

C: Yes.

L: And it's that was important and not really, you know, how you dress or how you look. The body with what he's doing every month and every day and all the time is that it's amazing enough. I think we don't celebrate enough the way we are and the way we've been built, which is amazing. And it's a true power.

C: Yeah.

L: And we go the other way. Do you know what I mean?

C: Yes.

L: We try to add stuff to our body to make it look into a certain way.

C: When you would say it's already amazing.

L: Yes, exactly. It's already amazing and already so clever.

C: Yes. Yeah.

L: If you listen to it, you don't need more than that.

C: You said that you feel that this is quite spiritual. Do you want to tell us more about that?

L: Well, it is definitely spiritual because you can find answer if you listen at the right time and if you ask a question at the right time. But I don't know if that's spiritual or if it's more, but because in some culture, it's just normal to sit for an hour and to meditate and then to be a lot more grounded and more reflective. So then you've got more wisdom and you can act better.

But I do think, because I'm a Christian like you, we met in church, and I really do think God created this cycle because you can see the cycle in everything like in the season of the year. You can see the cycle in the woman's body, but you can see the cycle in if you do a project, you start by thinking about it and then you start by talking about it and then you start doing it and then you edit it and you make it really good, like your podcast, and then you make it really good and then you start again.

There is always a cycle in everything. That's what I mean. There's always a start and in the end.

C: That sounds profoundly spiritual to me because you're starting off by saying that God created us with this cycle, that that cycle is kind of found reflected in nature and in life. And that as you connect more with yourself and your cycle, the way that God has made you, you find yourself to be more effective, that you feel more grounded, you feel more able to kind of act in the world as yourself, you celebrate yourself more. After all of that feels very spiritual to me.

L: Yeah, yeah definitely. Yeah, it's very humbling as well because you need to let it go. You need to surrender to your body and to the way you feel. What I found tricky is to surrender when you bleed to the nothingness. That can be really hard to spend a day doing nothing when you know we are a culture of doing and you know going to work and looking after the kids and there's always something to do, isn't it?

C: Yeah.

L: But then to decide that day I'm not going to do anything. To surrender to that. It's almost surrendering to God in a way because you just wait.

I don't know, like almost like dying to be reborn again. It's exactly that.

C: But it takes trust, doesn't it, to just stop?

L: It does, yeah. It's not happening in one go. I mean it takes a long time to be able to do that. But there is some woman who do that, "the big bleed" it's called. There is a network of women who can welcome you to their house and really look after you when you bleed and you do nothing at all. If you really do that, if you really surrender to the nothing, you're supposed to have some kind of wisdom will come at that time of the month.

C: Yeah. So what would you say to people who are working a job where they can't just stop? You know, you've got kids, you've got... So presumably you've had to do that balance too.

L: Definitely. We all have to.
I would say in the book, Wild Power, they talk about 10%.
Like if you think like 100%, what would you give to yourself? What would you do? And then take that 100% and just maybe 10% of it. That's a start. So like, I don't know if you think the 100% would be to stay in bed all day.

C: Yeah.

L: Maybe the 10% could be to have a nice hot bath when you come back from work.

C: Yeah.

L: Or like intentionally change something. So not doing something on that day that you always do and that you don't like doing.
Don't like doing the dishes, for example. Just don't do it. Do it tomorrow.
But like to make an intention, choice to not do something that you know that's going to make you feel unhappy on that day.

C: Yeah.

L: Yeah. And then gradually, maybe you will feel the benefit of it. So maybe next time you will do 20 and next time 30. I don't know if we can ever do 100%. But yeah, I'm sure you can. Maybe.
Not when you've got small children.

C: No. [Laughter]. But you probably can sit in front of the telly with them and do a duvet.

L: Of course. Yeah. What I try to do is to plan the meal, so to freeze my meal on that week. So then I don't have to cook.

Yeah, that's a good tip as well.

C: Yeah. So you've prepared for that.

L: Yes. To anticipate winter's coming. So you anticipate a new make your life easier on that week.

C: And it sounds like actually the whole of your household would kind of go into winter a bit.

L: Or they have to let you go to winter, or they have to come with you in winter.

C: Yeah. Yes. So they can either go out and do spring and summer.

L: Yeah, exactly.

C: And leave you with your hot chocolate and your duvet.

L: Yeah. But that's also a very good thing as well to make it clear and to make it obvious where you are at in your cycle.

I don't have it now, but I used to have a dial in my fridge with like some beautiful drawings that we've done in the workshop. They would have a narrow and it would show where I was in my cycle.

So that was nice. And it's very open in my house.
The boys now, women bleed.
And when they bleed, you need - like when mommy bleeding, leave me alone and go to daddy.
And yeah, it does work sometimes, sometimes not. But at least the intention is there.

C: Yes. And as you say, if you can get part of the way there, then actually you will get some rest.

L: Yes.

C: Some recuperation...

L: yes, you would get the benefit even if you don't do 100%. Yeah.

C: Yeah. Yeah.
So everybody has a rest in winter. And then suddenly, lots of things are happening in summer.

We're going on trips. What are we going on?

L: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

C: Yeah. That's really cool.

L: Yeah. Yeah.

C: I'm just thinking for the kids actually in those kind of quieter times, it would be taking the pressure off.

L: Yeah, definitely. And to show them it's okay to rest as well. And it's okay to be slow and we don't have to be on the go all the time. And we shouldn't be on the go all the time.

I think it's important for them to experience that. And for the parents to validate it, because otherwise you don't feel comfortable to do it when you're grown up.

C: Yeah. Yeah.
You said at the beginning that you were part of a woman's circle. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?

L: So yeah, I used to go every other Wednesday was in the morning. So it's just a lovely woman's circle.

So it's exactly a woman's in circle.

C: Yeah.

L: And then we just share how we feel. And then there is a leader there, prepare some activities and maybe a theme of conversation. And I guess it's just a space to share and to find support into womanhood, motherhood, everything around woman.


C:Yeah. Yeah.
So what led you to that in the first place?

L: I just love to be with women, I suppose. Yes.
I don't really remember the first time when I went there. I think there is a real power when women are together. It's like just a refreshment from the world. Yeah.

C: Yeah.
And then I know that you are working towards creating a festival at the moment called "Back to the Bone".

L: Yeah. Back to the Bone.

C: Which is just beginning to form. So do you want to tell us about your inspiration?

L: I've done one already, two years ago, where "Let It Bleed!” has been performed for the first time. So I've commissioned different art company to create a piece about menstrual cycle. And so it was all around menstrual cycle. So we had a piece around the Indian culture and menstrual cycle. Another one around the men perspective around the menstrual cycle, which was really good. We had the medley of songs. So they were going through the cycle with some songs. That was really funny. Yeah. "Let it bleed!”. And we did an exhibition as well, a photographic exhibition. And it was really well received. I think it went really well.

It was sold out and I want to do another one. So that's my next project to do "Back to the Bone 2".

But this time it would be around womanhood. I will keep it open.

C: Yeah.

L: Yeah. We will see. So I'm now in the process of applying for the art council, which is very long, but I'm almost finished. So I should be able to send it next week. So hopefully it would be positive and then we can start again.

C: Yeah. So what's your dream for it?

L: I would love it to be a yearly festival in Stoke.

C: Yeah.

L: To bring women and men together every year to just talk about woman and womanhood. And what does that mean in this world?
Because I think, yes, it's a lot better than what it was before, but I still think women struggle in other way. There is a lot of expectation around women, which I think are not right. Around the appearance quite a lot. You can see all this non-natural things that women do and change their body and just to look like the same.
Really. I think that's a shame. That's a real, real shame. And you also have got, you know, the backlash of all the eighties feminism, like women and men are equal and women and men are the same. And I really don't think men and women are the same at all. And I think we should celebrate women because they are women, not because they can do like men, because we can do like men, but I don't think we're very happy by doing like men.

We should embrace our femininity more. And just the way we are. And it's okay to be a woman.
We don't have to be a woman. We pretend to be a man, if that makes sense.

C: Yes. Yeah.

L: Yeah.


C: So from your perspective, what do you think are the unique things about women that we should be celebrating?

L: Women are really strong, extremely strong.
I see it in my work every day. They are so strong, so powerful, but they don't even realize it.
And they are the pillar of the family, most of the time. And that is not celebrated. I think women can go so far by fighting for their family and doing everything for the children. And you know, when we've got hard time. Yeah. The strength.

C: Yeah. It's a different kind of strength, isn't it?

L: Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a very deep strength.

C: Yes.

L: Yeah. Especially if children are involved, you would do anything, which is incredible when you think about it. Like what women go through for their kids is just mad.

C: Yeah.

L: Even just birth.

C: Yeah.

L: For example. Yeah. That would be my next work to do something around birth. Yeah. How I think natural birth is taking away from the woman quite a lot at the moment. I feel, you know, we have to go to hospital. We have to give birth in six hours. Otherwise you get induced. Again, no space for nature and to let stuff up and naturally.

C: Yeah.

L: Because the body of the woman, they can give birth. I mean, they've done it forever. We don't, sometimes we need help, but most of the times they don't need help. So yeah.

That's why we like to work on.

C: Oh, brilliant.
So I'm wondering if there's anything else that you would like to say that it feels you haven't said yet.

L: Yeah. Just for the woman to read about it, to feel it in their body and that wherever you are, you are normal. You can cry one day and think like you need to change your job. You need to divorce and you need to go to live in a desert Island. And the day after you feel, Oh no, actually I'm fine. And that's, that's part of the process of the cycle. It's not, we go through up and down, up and flow and it's fine. It's normal. Yeah. And men, if they could help to facilitate that and just let that happen with caring hands. Well, I say hands, it's more arms, like to hold space for the woman to be there. Yes. That would be lovely.

The world would be a better place because the woman would be stronger and probably more available for everything.

C: Yeah.

L: So then life would be easier if women could follow the cycle all the time.

C: Yeah. Yeah. They'd be less exhausted. Wouldn't they?

L: Yeah. And less depression. Yeah.
Less burnout and more authenticity, more grounding into the nature and who we are. Yeah.

C: Yeah.
Wonderful. So the books that you mentioned were "Wild Power" and "Wise Power". And who did you say they were by?

L: Red School.

C: Red School. And then do you have sort of resources and things online or stuff about what you're doing if people are interested in finding out more?

L: So there is my website, which is Lucie Labadie Dance Artist (lucielabadiedanceartist.com) Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time.

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Well, thank you. It's been great. So that was my interview with the brilliant Lucie Labadie.

If you enjoyed that, particularly the spirituality element of what she was talking about, then I think you might quite enjoy my new book. It's called Finding God's Feminine Side, and it really leans into the spirituality of God as feminine and of us as women as feminine beings.

And you can find it on Amazon, "Finding God's Feminine Side" It's available in paperback and on Kindle.

[Music]
Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Loved Called Gifted podcast. If you'd like to get in touch, you can email lovedcalledgifted@gmail.com. You can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted.com. And that's also the place to go if you're interested in the Loved Called Gifted course or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching.

Thank you for listening.