[Music] Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted podcast.
This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose.
I'm your host, Catherine Cowell.

C> So I'm really delighted to be joined by Emily today and we're sitting upstairs in your house where we found a nice spot next to a really beautiful picture called Joy, which is amazing.

Would you like to introduce yourself, Emily?

E> Yeah, I'm Emily.
We met at New Wine, didn’t we

C> We did yes. We have children who have become freinds

E> That’s right

C> And that’s how we got to know each other

E> yes

C> And then when we were talking about coming to see you, realised that we have both adopted children, of about the same age, probably at about the same time, given that some of our children are the same age as one another now.

So I mentioned that it was very much going 0 to 60 in terms of parenting when our two came home, and you mentioned that you already had four children at that point.

So when did you know you were going to end up with a large family? Is that something that you'd always been aware of? Or did that kind of just sort of happen?

E> Yeah, I think we both thought we wanted lots of children.

And I think from when we first got married in 1989, I think we always thought we'd like to have some birth children and then adopt.

We didn't discuss it for hours or anything like that. We just thought, yeah, that's what we'd like to do, but didn't talk about it much. So we just got on with it.

Luckily, we managed to have four of our own birth children.
And then when the youngest was 12, we adopted our first two, a sibling pair.

C> Do you know what it was about having a large family that appealed to you and Michael?

E> No, I don't really.
Well, hospitality was always important to us as well before we had children.
So we got married and had five years without children.
And with our first year of marriage, we didn't really think about having people to stay that much.
And then exactly one year after being married, we sort of felt we were starting something.
And the day after our first anniversary, somebody knocked on the door and said, I'm really stuck. Can I come and stay for a bit? She had just split up with somebody and things.

And so a lot of the time we had someone to stay for a little bit and just help people out. And we felt that was our kind of calling, I suppose.

C> Yeah.

E> Or perhaps it's a normal part of being a Christian.
I think we thought it was.

C> I think it is a bit of a calling.

It was really interesting though. You saying that Michael had thought you shouldn't have anybody for the first year.

E> Yeah. He got the idea from the Old Testament.
So its from Deuteronomy or something like that.

C> Yeah.

E> And going to battle and things. Yeah.

C> So there is a bit, isn't there, which says you were let off any kind of military service for the first year of marriage.

It's really interesting because my first husband and I were really hospitable, but I remember that we couldn't handle it. Like the first year that we were married, it didn't feel the same. I remember we had somebody come and stay and being absolutely exhausted afterwards.
And I think that was because we'd done the Christian thing of not living together before we were married. And so that first year we were kind of getting to know each other.
But interestingly when we had people to stay subsequently to that, we were much more ready for it.

So probably there is something in that, isn't there, kind of protecting that first year.

E> Yeah, I think it was a good principle.

And then we did really feel God sort of guiding us to people who just needed somewhere for a bit. And we had a spare room and we did enjoy it. And then I remember our vicar saying to us, "You do realise when you have children it's going to be different, don't you?"
My heart sort of sank.
I thought, "Oh, do we not do hospitality when we've got children?"
And I was a bit crushed and worried about it when I thought, "I'll just pray about that." And of course, when you adopt in a way you're carrying on, aren't you?

So definitely, yeah, you have to protect your children, don't you?
But we didn't shut the doors.

We definitely liked having people for lunch on Sunday. That was always a big thing. And we reckon the children enjoyed that, so that was okay. And then we had this idea of adoption, which was always there in the air.

C> That's really interesting that actually your heart felt kind of crushed by the idea of not inviting people around. It's definitely something that's run deep.

E> I think so, because in lockdown our church did online services. And one time somebody leading the service said, "There's somebody sitting out there who's got a bright coloured scarf."
And I had a very bright coloured scarf in my violin case.
And God wants to say to you that you're really missing doing hospitality because of lockdown, but don't worry about it because at the moment just host God.
So, okay, I'll host you.
And that kind of gave me a bit of an answer.
So I think you're right, it must be something deep in our DNA or something, I don't know.

C> Yes.
I'm wondering how that for you reflects something of the heart of God.
Where do you see hospitality within the divine?

E> I suppose it's love, isn't it?
And when you receive hospitality, it does touch you at a very deep level, doesn't it?
It's part of generosity, isn't it, really?

C> It is.

E> And that generous love. And that comes from God, doesn't it?

C> Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of giving it out.

E> You can't really keep it in. As you give it, you receive more as well, don't you see?

C> I think that we all show forth different aspects of who God is, because none of us can do all of it.
So that obviously for you, there is something about that generous welcome and giving and that hospitality and space that resonates with what God's put in you.

So you always had in mind that you were going to adopt.
Can you remember sort of the point at which that became a now thing?

E> Yes. So we got to 2006 and we invited County Council to come in and talk to us and talk about adoption. And at that point, I don't think adopting when you had birth children was all that common. And the whole movement with Home for Good hadn't started.
So we were a bit sort of, it seemed a bit weird, I think.
We were renting a farmhouse. They didn't like us renting. They thought our four birth children should be a bit older so they could cope with it better.
And so they basically said, just put it on pause.
So we did.

And then we came back in 2012 when they sort of rolled out the red carpet for us, because I think they weren't really expecting us to come back. And when we did, I think they admitted they felt a bit bad that we'd been waiting all that time.
And I now know that they generally do put people off adoption and fostering a little bit just to kind of weed out the people who really mean it.

I suppose they were sort of doing that a little bit as well.
But in the end, it was true that for our children to be a bit older was good.
So it was good advice.

C> What was it about that that you thought was helpful looking back?

E> Although we were impatient, we were very impatient at the time. We couldn't wait to do it actually.
And we used to drive people mad saying we want to adopt and they'd give us funny looks and things.
But in our case, I think it was better for our children to be older so they could understand what the little ones had been through and what it would be like.
And they had more to give in a way because they were older.
And their lives were more busy with all the stuff they were concentrating on with schools.

We were always worried, obviously anyone would be worried if you've got birth children, you're always going to worry that it's going to hurt them in some way. But we did feel such a calling to it.

We had to keep on praying that through and trusting God. And you get loads of comments saying, "Oh, what about your children?" And negativity, lots and lots of it actually, especially because it wasn't the done thing then so much as it is now.

Because I think, well, in our opinion, Home for Good have changed the culture of churches quite strongly.

C> So Home for Good for people who don't know.

E> It's a charity that actually started just after we got going. So we adopted a sibling pair in 2012.
And actually we did form a little group of people like us.
So we actually had a group of six of us who'd meet for coffee and we were all interested in doing adoption.
I had quite a close friend who was Catholic who had four children, almost exactly the same age as my four, who was a bit ahead of me. She especially felt a calling to Down's Syndrome children. So she's adopted too.

Yeah, we used to meet and then we'd been meeting for about a year, I think.
And suddenly we heard that Home for Good was going to help the church to understand better because we'd all suffered a bit, I think, from churches not quite knowing what on earth we were doing.
And now it's like the church has just caught up, I think, with how things are nowadays.

Because I think quite a lot of people thought that there were children's homes and thought you only adopt if you can't have babies. That's the only reason you adopt. And it's a different mentality.

So yeah.

C> My understanding was that Home for Good came about in order to introduce the idea of fostering an adoption to church on the ground that there were a lot of children needing that kind of care and as Christians part of our care for orphans, I guess.

E> Sort of trying to bless and encourage and support the people who were doing it and helping to see it as a ministry as well rather than just, "Oh, well, you get on with that, we'll get on with the church stuff and you can do that." As if they're two separate things, yeah.

C> Yeah. But again, it's interesting that you both kind of couldn't wait to do it, that there was that heart call towards it.

E> Yeah, we weren't very good at being patient, but we had to wait. But in the end, it was looking back and say, "Okay, yeah." Yeah.

C> That's really good confirmation though, isn't it? Because it's not always easy.

E> No. And I don't think anyone who fosters or adopts has a completely easy time.

C> No. And you presumably had all your assessments and things.
And then what was the process like around deciding? Did you know that you were going to go for a sibling group?

E> Originally, we imagined it would be one child actually. But then at the parents' evening at school, one of the teachers said, they'd actually adopted five children, they're all from the same mother. We said we're interested in adoption, and I remember that he was supposed to be talking to us about Latin or something, but anyway, he said, "Well, you should look at sibling groups because that'll really help. They'll speed it up if you'll say yes to that."
And we thought, "Oh, sibling groups." So we got interested in a pair or even a three.
But apparently, our two were the most difficult to place children because they were a sibling pair. One was nearly five, the older one. And quite likely they'd have fetal alcohol syndrome, though that wasn't definite.
One was disabled.
But they've been great.

C> So do you remember that moment when you knew who they were and kind of knew that they were yours?

E> Yeah, I do. I remember Michael saying one night, because actually we'd been showing quite a few different children. And we always thought, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe it's them."

We weren't the kind of people that... we know other people who sort of definitely thought, "No, it's not that one. It's not that one. Oh, it is this one."
We didn't have that. We were just like, "Yeah, it could be that one, yes."

I had a friend who was praying really hard that we wouldn't get the wrong ones. She thought we were a bit sort of, I don't know, clueless or something. So she was praying really hard that we wouldn't get the wrong ones.

And one night Michael said, "You know those two..." For some reason, the fact that they had squints, well, they don't really have squints, but for some reason that was... I don't know why it was on, you know there's this huge list of things. And he said, "Oh, you know the two with squints? I think they might be the right ones," Michael said.

And I do remember that night sort of really giving it to God to say, "Okay."
There was a moment of like saying yes to God, I think, that night.

And then in the middle of the night, there was a text that came from a friend, which had Isaiah 66 verse 12 in it. And I woke up and it felt like the room filled with peace. I don't know.
I said to Michael, "What's going on?"
And I looked at the text and it said:
“For this is what the Lord says. I'll extend peace to her like a river and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream. You will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees. As the mother comforts her child, so I'll comfort you and you'll be comforted over Jerusalem. When you see this, your heart will rejoice and you will flourish like grass. The hand of the Lord will be made known to his servants."

And it just felt like that was confirming it, I think, at that point anyway.

C> That's beautiful.

E> Yeah. It felt like one of many unexpected confirmations that came really, I think.

C> Yeah. So there was that kind of divine maternal river of peace. That's amazing.
And you remember meeting them?

E> Yeah. So because a little girl had cerebral palsy, they wanted us to see what she was like.
So we went to a play area and met the foster carer with them. And they weren't supposed to know who we were or anything. We just happened to be there having coffee. And they smiled at us and we watched them, but they later told us that they did know. They knew what was going on, as children do, but we all thought they didn't know.

So I think that was about October, November. And then they came to us in April, so quite a lot later actually.

C> Yeah.

E> The foster carers was quite attached to them and they had said no to long-term fostering. But in my head, it was like, "Oh no, we're stealing these children.” I couldn't sort of, I got quite upset at the feeling of them having to let go of them. So I didn't find it very easy to sort of get my head around what was going on.
But the nice thing was that at that point, our children could see that I was going wobbly and they sort of took the baton really. And they said, "We're definitely having these children."
So things were quite hard.

C> But it's really full of that, isn't it? The whole fostering adoption world, because you know that somebody has lost their children.
However difficult their life might have been before, there are bereaved parents, a bereaved mother somewhere.

I certainly felt that we had, so you know that quite often in the early sort of adoption bit, you get the opportunity to meet birth parents. And I remember being in a room with the birth mother of our children and she was just weeping. We ended up, and everybody was kind of watching her weep and I just went and held her.
But there is that real sense that there's been huge loss.

And equally for foster care is one of the hardest things about foster care is that in order to be a good foster carer, you have to love and form an attachment and a bond with your foster children, who then you have to say goodbye to.

So there's quite a lot of that loss and grief for everybody, isn't there?

E> I remember at the fostering conference one year they said, "The kind of foster carers that we want are the ones that find that really, really difficult and agonising." You don't want to get all these people that really didn't mind, that wouldn't be the answer, would it? Because people often say, "Oh, I couldn't be a foster carer." But actually those are the people that you want.
You want the people that do attach properly to the children and do find it hard. So thats how it goes.

When I was really agonising about it and really praying, "Is this completely wrong? How can it be right?" I don't know why I suddenly thought, "I'll just do something practical." and I thought, "I know, they need school labels."
So I went on to Woven Labels online and I ordered with a surname, not thinking of the significance of it, I just ordered them. But as I ordered them, I just suddenly felt really touched by the Holy Spirit. I thought, "Oh, is that God saying yes, they are meant to be with you."

And I've gradually felt more and more strength coming back into me that was definitely right. But I did have quite a wobble at that stage.

C> It's interesting though, because in the same way that you were saying that you don't want the foster carers who are not going to care, I think it's really important for those of us who adopt to understand that context, you know, and to not notice, you know, that there are people who are going to be going through.

E> I remember them saying, "We like you because you've got empathy." but we didn't expect your empathy to sort of get so onto the foster care that you couldn't sort of cope with the adoption, which is sort of what happened to me.
I kind of got into the foster carers shoes, which just overwhelmed me actually.

C> So how old were your siblings who came home?

E> They were nearly four, nearly five when they came to us.
Then we actually, two years later, adopted again. And this time it was a 15-month-old baby.
Again, difficult to place because on paper there were lots of things that might put people off, but it wasn't a barrier for you.

E> No.
So I guess if I'm honest, through prayer and the journey, we did feel more and more sure she was the right one. So we didn't feel like we were rushing into something on our own. I suppose that was the sense of it being the right person.

C> So how old is she now?

E> Eleven.

C> Wow.
So at this point you've got seven.

E> Seven children. Yes.
So I'm going off to university and things, but yeah, seven.

C> But that hasn't been the end of your hospitality in opening your home?

E> No. So we went to Spring Harvest and number seven was about two by then I think.
And Krishna Kandiah was speaking about, actually fostering, but also Alan Kurdi was washed up on the shore, the little refugee boy. So there was a big sort of campaign started of trying to encourage people to offer to be foster carers for asylum seeking children.
Yeah, we did feel called to foster.
And I do remember feeling like God said to me, when number seven is four, you'll be fostering.
So, I thought okay. And we just started the process and it felt quite easy, actually quite quick.
And then we moved house.
And then just before her fourth birthday, about a week before that, we had our first two place and we, and we chose them to go to the asylum seeking children's route.
So we are foster carers, but we specialise in asylum seeking or refugee teenage girls.

C> So, and how many have there been?

E> Good question. I'll have to pause on that. Eleven.
If you include a Ukrainian girl that we foster.

C> Yeah.

E> But then we've had, while we were waiting for the next one and we did, we did the odd little bit of respite, three really short placements, but yeah, but it's not including them.

C> And you said you mentioned that you moved house.

So in the midst of all of that, cause we are in your house, which has got plenty of space because you started this story with a little house.

E> Oh no. Yeah. At the very beginning. Yes. We were in a little house when we first got married. Yeah.

C> Yes. Still offering hospitality.
Yeah. So is this place where you are now? Did you have a sense of God calling you here?

E> Yeah, we did.
So when we first got married, we were walking on the river in, in Oxford. For some reason I suddenly said to Michael, what do you think we're going to do? And for some reason we're out in the countryside at that moment, we simultaneously thought we're going to have a really big house and use it to serve God. And we both started talking about it and we'd never talked about it before. And we talked about it then, which must've been in 1989 when we got married, but then we never talked about it again, which is I had this conversation.
Maybe we're going to have this big house, a bit like Lee Abbey, but we'll just be sort of, you know, and then we just never mentioned it, but I suppose we did treat every house a bit like it was, maybe that was the house.

So now we're in a very big house. There is space for 11 of us here.
And cause most of our girls that when they get to 18, they carry on.

And I suppose what we were keen for, which we've been lucky to do is that our four birth children who are all in their twenties, one's 30 now actually, would be able to come back and not feel there wasn't space for them. So they've all had bedrooms here at the same time as everyone else.

C> Yeah. That's really precious, actually, isn't it? That sense that you've got a family home that is there that you can go back to. Yeah.
How did you come to be here? What was that? What was that story?

E> So my husband, his business done really well and we didn't, we definitely didn't want to use it all for a house. So we put the stakes and said, we're going to use it for this, this and this. But we, we did feel the big house was one of the things, but definitely not. That definitely wasn't sort of the pinnacle main thing at all, but although it looks like it to everyone else, cause the rest is a bit anonymous and secret, if you know what I mean. So this is the bit people can see. So there's outbuildings, which we've used and turned into nice dwellings, I suppose.
So it's, it's a bit like a small retreat centre in a way, except that we focus very much on those who wouldn't go to afford normal retreat places. So yeah, some inner city missionaries, especially Metis Trust and others overseas missionaries.

And then we all say 2017, actually, but we have the idea of refugees having holidays because as refugees would come here for holidays, but then of course the Ukraine war happened. So we've, we've done quite a lot of hosting for Ukrainians through the buildings that we've got here as well.

C> It's amazing.
So you have your four, your birth children and your adopted children and your series of foster children, and then you welcome people for holidays and retreats.

E> We don't call it a retreat, but we do hope that they'll be blessed and meet with God, but we don't run it for them. They just use it, use a space.

C> Yeah. Yeah. Which is a huge, huge blessing.

E> I hope so. Yeah.
It feels like a privilege to be able to offer it and it's in a way it's no different to having a little house that you use for hospitality. It's just that there's a lot of space here. So there's a bit more than we can do.

C> Yeah. Yeah. Allows you lots of options, but it kind of, it feels like it's the right size house for the size of your heart in terms of, in terms of you've emotionally got a lot of space.

E> Hopefully. Yeah.
This friend who I've, I started the adoption journey being friends with, who had four birth children like we did, and then she adopted two children with Down syndrome. Actually they ended up in a big house as well, but before we both had our big houses, we were walking around the garden centre where we had coffee and there were these little pots and then these huge, great big pots. And we said, we both need a big pot like that don't we for what we want to do.
And it does feel like that.

C> Yeah.

E> Feel like God's given it to us for that. And we feel happy and blessed.

C> Yeah. Yeah.
How does that partnership between you and Michael work? Like what's that been like for you both?

E> We both actually play instruments. We like worship, hopefully all pushes like worship, but I think for us, it's quite an important part of who we are now we function.
We both definitely need time reading the Bible and praying. We meet Christians who say they don't do that, and we think, how, how, how do you do that? And we don't know how.
Well, for me, anyway, we're both of us, you just need to feel you're being spoken to by your creator to be able to do what you're meant to be doing. It doesn't work otherwise.
So we, obviously we have friends that we asked to pray a lot and we know a lot of people that are doing things quite similar to us.
So, I mean, in fact, the church we're in at the moment has got a lot of adoptive and fostering parents in it. So that's great.

C> Yeah. Yeah.

E> And in fact, we do use this place once a year for a home for good picnic for the areas. That's lots of people there.
But mainly it's the, it is the prayer support and it's great to have friends that do believe in what you're doing.

C> So what are the things that you found challenging?

E> I think obviously you want to give everyone enough attention, enough love and, and you could just get really worried and guilty about that the whole time, but we keep checking it out with God and we keep praying and we keep thinking we're still meant to be doing what we're doing.
And I suppose if you wake up in the morning thinking, help, there's a lot of love that I need to give out today, help me do it, then actually anything's possible, isn't it?
So hopefully, I'm not saying we're perfect though, we're definitely not perfect, but that's probably the biggest challenge I suppose, just to give out enough for what everyone needs.
But having said that, when you have a big family, people in the family love each other as well. So there's more dynamics, you know, there's more ways to receive love than just through the parents. So there's that side of it.

C> Yeah. I think that's, I think that's really true.

E> You do sort of see that there's more relationships all together in the family than there would the way it's been. Yeah.
And what, what are other challenges? I suppose I didn't ever want to look different and be different.
And first of all, we were different by adopting in the first place when we had birth and that was different at that time, that was very different.
And then I thought, oh great, we're kind of normal now. Lots of people are doing it. And then suddenly we're mushroomed out of normal again and exploded out of the top.
So we're now a bit weird again. So I suppose if, you know, you can't really sort of hide the fact when you walk into church, there's lots of you. I don't know. I suppose, yeah, you don't always want to be different, but then that's silly because if we're going to follow Jesus, then we're probably sometimes going to be different to people around us. So it's not a very good instinct to have.

C> So do you know what it is that kind of makes that difficult for you?

E> Probably it's just wanting, you know, everyone to prove and you can't always get everyone to approve of you if you're a bit different. Can you say you stick out a bit? So yeah.
And I think sometimes you make other people feel uncomfortable and that makes them not like you for that reason as well. Probably that there's that side to it. I expect, I don't know. Can't read people's minds, but.

C> And has that got easier for you?

E> I think so. Cause I think the longer you're doing something, the more people start to respect it in a way, because they can see things that are working.
I think the wider family have gradually started to almost rejoice in what we're doing, but that didn't happen immediately. Sort of took lots of little steps, but maybe it has got easier because as you get older, you realise that actually you do what you're meant to be doing on this planet. That's what you do.
And it's not about trying to fit in or be the same as anybody else. It's what you're called to and you only get one life. So you might as well live it to the full and follow what you think you're calling it.

C> Yeah. And there is that kind of more settledness that comes with age a bit.

E> Yeah, definitely.
And I definitely find that, you know, the social workers at the very beginning, when you're in, for example, you're a new foster carer, there's a kind of tension in the atmosphere somehow, but the longer they see you doing it, the more you feel their trust of you and their encouragement really.
There's a security that comes with time and space. That builds up in a good way as well, I think, as the years go on.

C> Yes. Yeah. Just the whole thing becomes a bit more familiar, doesn't it?
Like the processes become familiar and the language becomes more familiar and they know that you're a safe pair of hands, essentially. Yeah.

E> We're on to our third Eritrean. So we know so much now.
It makes it so much easier than the first time, you know, we have to find the church and the food and everything else and what they like and don't like. Yeah.

C> I'm just thinking back to that connection that you had with the foster carer right at the beginning where you were really struggling because of your empathy. And I wonder how that's been, that empathy and that love that you have. I wonder how that's been when you have been with so many people who've been through such difficult time.

E> Yeah. I wonder too sometimes because sometimes it is very dramatic what they've been through. Sometimes I wish everybody could know about it because I feel like if everyone knew all the details, all the churches knew all the details, then a lot of people would be moved by it and a lot of people would want to pray or to be involved.
But of course you can't, of course it's a secret. It's their life story. You shouldn't go publishing it.

C> Yeah.

E> It could be overwhelming, I think. I think probably my trick, if I feel like I'm going to be overwhelmed, is I think I'm going to ask somebody else to pray for this as well. So I don't share a whole life story, but I will say, for example... [through tears] speaks of her girls 7 friends were drowned in the sea about a week ago. She knew them all really well.
But she's okay, a lot of people prayed for her. We did feel actually the atmosphere in the house. We could feel people were praying for her. And I think it sounds silly to say she's okay, but I think she is okay actually.
She's focusing on, she's going to have a baby and life is going to move on.
But that's just such a massive thing.

How can you imagine that happening? How can you imagine? And all the things they go through, the refugees, a lot of them are assaulted. A lot of the girls are assaulted.
And it is so huge that you just know you've got to share it with. The burden is shared, isn't it?
It says come to me or you have a burden to them. You have to do that.
Of course, Michael and I have each other as well, which is great. And we've got our older children are very interested as well. So that's good.

I mean, there's a strict thing in fostering about breach of confidentiality. So you have to be very careful that you're not, I would never recommend sharing details on a huge WhatsApp group or something like that. Be very careful about that kind of thing.

But if it's in order to help you as a foster carer, you're allowed to sort of share something. And so I think for prayer, as long as it's done carefully, it's okay. So we do ask people to pray. And we've got Michael and I talk to each other a lot and pray together too.

C> So it sounds like part of what you're doing is making sure that you're not carrying that emotional load yourself. That you're handing it to God in prayer.

E> I mean, it is, I don't know how we do it.
It feels like a miracle because I don't know how we're not overwhelmed because in a way it is overwhelming.
But one thing is you're focusing on what's here and now as well. So in a way that keeps you going because they're all positive things aren't they? Getting into education and even the health side of things.
At least there's so many good things on offer in this country that you're sort of semi rejoicing in all of that, I think really, because you're giving them the things that they need.
So there's a massive satisfaction in that as well, which I think a lot of foster carers would say that seeing somebody's needs met is actually some of the reward really. And seeing people gradually changing as well.

C> What have you learned about yourself on this journey?

E> I like walking the dog. I do use that as my time to pray actually, around the field.

I think God can use you just when you're plodding through each day and it doesn't feel very glamorous or amazing. You're just plodding through, getting breakfast, getting everyone out to school, and you're just plodding really.
But actually God can use that.

In a way, a lot of that is love, isn't it? It's little tiny things and you feel very normal actually. You just feel like a normal person, but God can use it and multiply it and bless people.

C> And what have you learned about God?

E> If he calls you to do something, he'll equip you and help you. That sounds simple, but I suppose we do feel that's happened. I mean, one example is a small example, but it was actually Michael, not me, that felt we're going to host Ukrainians. So I was thinking, how are we going to fit that? And I've got too much, I have loads and loads of admin to do, I find this number of children.
And I was walking around the field and I was like, well, how are we going to do the driving? Because we're in the middle of nowhere. There's all these schools to get to. And some neighbours do lots and lots of driving for us. To cut a long story short, they've really got into it.
And the idea of who it would be came while I was walking the dog.

So that's a very small example, but practical things like that feel like they come into place when they're needed. And you look back and think, how did that happen? If that makes sense.

C> Just listening to you, it really does feel like your call and who you are and what you've needed to fulfill that has just, you talked about that sense of there being peace like a river.
And I think that verse that you read talked about "the wealth of the nations".
That actually there has been that stream, hasn't there, of the riches that you've needed to do what you do.
So whether that's neighbours who drive for you, or as you and your friends had a bigger pot, it's a very nice big pot, along with its walled garden and all of those things.
But that's come with it. And it's really interesting because on paper, this all sounds exhausting and harrying. But that is not what you're experiencing, is it?

E> No. And when we fostered a sibling group actually, in the middle of COVID, they don't quite fit the refugee category. Because of Brexit, they didn't have any papers and they didn't have settled status. They had been in England quite a long time and they came into care more for the usual reasons that British children go into care. So there's more to do with violence in the home, that kind of thing.
And I was busy working through my to-do list and I just felt God saying, just go and relax for a minute and pray. I felt like God said, either pray or phone a friend.
Went and sat on the altar like, okay, I'm relaxing.
And then just when I finally relaxed, there's a phone call from the fostering social worker to say there's a sibling group who they wanted to keep together. So I phoned Michael and I said, what do you think about this?
He said, "oh, I'm getting that annoying joy. That means it's the right thing, but in my head, it's completely the wrong thing.@

C> That annoying joy,

E> which he recognized. And then he kept getting this, there's this first one somewhere in the Psalms about a platter of fruit. And then some friends of ours who foster refugees as well, actually, they didn't know what we were thinking about. They came around with this huge platter of fruit at the front door.
And then we'd made the decision and our 16 year old, 15 year old came home from school and he went out and picked tons and tons of daffodils and put them all around the house.
But there was this feeling of sort of overflow, like because it was a big thing to take in three more. They had a tiny little one with them as well. It was two big sisters and a little one.
I think we needed double, double confirmation, not just, you know, so we had it and it felt like it came in lots of ways.
And actually they've been a blessing, those three, they're still with us.

So two of them are now staying put, they've gone over 18 and the little one's now seven and he's SGO now, Special Guardianship Order.

C> Yeah. So did we meet him earlier?

E> Yeah. Yeah.

C> He's lovely.

E> Yeah. So he came in his three year.

C> Wow.

E> It's been really nice to have a tiny little one again, actually, it's been good for everybody. So there is another one, a small person coming into the house quite soon. Well, he's there already here actually, but they'll be born soon.

C> One of your girls is expecting.

E> So sadly, the refugees, girls are often assaulted and that is what happened to her, but she's okay with it.
She's an Orthodox Christian. She believes God loves her and God loves the baby. So obviously she was offered abortion by all the medical staff, but she didn't want to do that.

C> And that's incredibly courageous, isn't it?

E> Of her? Yes. Yeah.
Well, in her culture, Eritrean Orthodox Christians wouldn't dream of abortion.
So that was completely out of the question, but they did talk to her about adoption in case that was something she was thinking about, but she didn't want to do that either.

C> So just take a moment. I'm wondering if there's anything else that feels like it would be good to share.

E> Yeah, I can tell you a dream that I had. I don't know whether it's...

C> Yeah.

E> So I had a dream before we started fostering and I've never woken up with my face wet with tears but I did after this dream.
And it was Jesus knocking on the door with the archway and it was like the Holman Hunt picture.
It was like that. And I woke up and I said, "Who is it?" But I knew it was the refugees. And that was before we'd moved here, so that was 2016.
And since then, there have been lots of refugees that have come to be fostered, but it's given me the sense that every, maybe especially with the refugees, but actually any of them, that you are welcoming Christ when you're welcome a refugee.
And I know Revelation 3, 16, that's usually about becoming a Christian, knock and I'll open the door.
But then it's sort of a mixture of that verse and when you did it for the least of these, my brethren, you did it for me kind of thing. So I suppose I found that inspiring.
There's also, when you adopt little children, you could be welcoming God that way as well, because that's the first about when you welcome them, you're welcoming me as well. So you're welcoming a king really, in God's eyes, not the least, but the greatest. It's all sort of upside down. First to be last, last to be first. So that's a helpful way of thinking.

And there is a blessing in it. There's definitely, like with any hospitality, like when you don't feel like having people around for lunch and then you do, and then you think, "Oh yeah, I'm really glad I did that. That was great. Why didn't I want to do it?"
Because you realise your family has been blessed as well. It's not all giving you do receive.

When we'd fostered three girls, I thought we'd finished actually. And Simon Gilbert was talking, I don't know why our television in this new house at that point in the kitchen would give you God TV. It doesn't anymore, but then it did. So there was Simon Gilbert speaking and he said, "Finish well, don't just start, finish well."

And I was thinking, "Right, we've done it. We've got our three. We've done it, God, done it."

And I felt like, "You haven't actually, you haven't finished yet." And I really felt like, "Oh, we haven't finished." So I didn't know what was coming next, but I realised that I thought we'd finished, but we hadn't finished.

So I don't mean that everyone has to carry on fostering for the rest of their lives or anything like that. But at that point, I think I'd kind of got it into my head that was it, "Right, we've done it." And you never have, have you, until you die. So actually it wasn't quite the right mentality.

C> Yeah. Did you want to finish at that point?

E> I don't know really. I think I just thought, "Phew, we've got this far."
It was more like a kind of, "Ah, we've got here," kind of feeling.

But actually, every day is a new day for in fostering and adoption and having children or anyone. On the day you're on, it's the day that you've got to have the love, isn't it? It's no good what you did yesterday, is no good. It's today that you need it.

C> Yeah. And also you don't need to look too far ahead because you could look forward to thinking, "Oh my goodness, I'm going to still have to be doing this in five years' time."
Not today you don't.

E> You just do today, yeah?

C> Yeah. Do you think your view of God has changed over the years?

E> I think I definitely know the power of prayer more. It works.
Asking other people to pray does work.
I knew that before, but I think I know it more now than I did before.
I think I'd underestimated what God does when we pray. It's such a huge thing to look after a child, isn't it?

C> Yeah.

E> That you kind of get to the end of yourself really quickly and think, "Help." What will happen in this child's life is such a huge question mark. I suppose people are drawn to prayer and to God through having children anyway, aren't they?

C> Yeah. It does really feel though like there is an abundance that that river kind of runs through.
You talked about people turning up with all the platters of fruit and the daffodils and the help when you were thinking about...

E> Yeah, it's incredible.

C> Yeah. There is just that sense being in your house and being with you. There is that real sense that there is that flow of provision that means that it's not heavy and it's not as burdensome.
That's not to say... I mean, you talked about you and Michael needing to have time and needing to make sure that you've got those things in place both spiritually and kind of practically like walking the dog and going swimming and having time.
So I'm sure that there is that need to... I'm not being simplistic about it, but there is a sense that there is enough.

Does that feel like we've said everything?

E> I could tell you one more thing.
So I did a degree and I did a PhD on the Dead Sea Scrolls and then I did teach a bit actually in university as well.
And sometimes when we're getting going on this life, I think, "What am I... am I supposed to be doing something with all of that?" And once I went up for prayer at New Wine actually and said, "What am I supposed to be doing with all this Hebrew and everything?"
The picture that the person had was... it was inside me like one of those music boxes. And I felt like God was saying, "It's in you and it's playing out for now anyway." I think one day maybe I'll do something else with it again.
But at the moment, it was a bit of my life, I feel like I put on pause, but God's saying, "No, you didn't, it's in you." Because obviously I had the privilege of reading the Bible in its original languages. It obviously kind of puts it into you.

That's been part of the journey is realising that maybe I'm not using that in the way I thought I'd use it at the moment anyway.

C> I'm wondering when you're reading the Bible, whether that connection to the Hebrew, whether you feel that when you're reading it.

E> I feel like I'm lucky to have that, but I feel like I could show anybody how to do it, just by all the amazing stuff there is online now, but it definitely enriches me.

C> And do you have a dream of what you might do with it in the future?

E> One day I think I might express something with my mouth in words, but I don't know when or in written or in words. I don't know. But maybe that'll be when I'm 80 or something. I don't know.

C> What will that be?

E> I don't know.

C> If you had to guess.

E> I have no idea. I think sometimes I kind of feel like it's God's word and I want to get it out of me in some way, but I don't know how. And I don't know when.
There's a mystery about that, but I suppose none of us know, do we, very far ahead quite often. We don't know very far ahead what's coming next.

C> Does your love of languages kind of come out? Is that useful in fostering people from so many different places?

E> It's quite fun sometimes because Eritrean people that we've had anyway speak to Tigrinya, which has got quite a lot of Semitic roots in it.
So I'll say, is house something like 'Byit' or 'Bytsan' and I'll say, yes it is. And there's Shalom and they've got something a bit like that. And lots of words actually, the word for bread, they've got lots of roots that are the same.
So we have nice lighthearted conversations about it, but I did think probably a bit stupidly, but I thought I'd learn Ukrainian, but I didn't get very far with that.

C> So it's been really interesting apart from everything else.

E> It's been really interesting. I suppose you could say it's interesting. There's lots of things that we found out about that we didn't know about, I suppose.
I didn't know anything about trafficking, but I know a lot about trafficking now. So it's not a nice thing, but yeah, nice things as well. Music, food, yeah.
We do get lots of nice food in this house. I think we've had Chinese, Vietnamese, Slovakian, Eritrean and English. So we get a good diet in this house.

We're lucky because actually a lot of the girls we've had really like cooking, so we have a nice time.

C> That is amazing because it wasn't the verse that you read from Isaiah, doesn't it? That has something about the wealth of nations in it, doesn't it?

E> It does, yeah.

C> But it does feel like that the people who are in your life from all those different places.

E> I've been getting to know a bit about Eritrea Orthodox Christianity, I've been to the Eritrea and Orthodox church a few times. That's quite exciting.

C> Yeah.

E> It's been six hours doing their worship.

C> Wow.

E> And they have a very somber time before communion and then a very joyful time after it. The style of music completely changes and they worship like this. They rock.

C> Well, thank you ever so much for your time and for your stories and for your hospitality. It's been lovely.

E> Thank you.

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