C: Welcome to the Loved Called Gifted podcast. This is your place to come for musings about spirituality, identity and purpose. I'm your host, Catherine Cowell.

C: So today I'm with Sarah Fisher to talk about something called NVR, which stands for Nonviolent Resistance.
So do you just want to tell us who you are and where you are talking to us from Sarah, because that was quite exciting.

S: I will do, thank you Catherine.
Firstly, thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here.
Shall I start with where I'm talking from? I am talking from a rather nice little log cabin in my garden, so that I can work, it's sunny down here today, sunny Sussex and NVR is about, it's called Nonviolent Resistance, which I think often means people are connected with violence and aggression and that kind of thing. But actually for me, it's about relationships and connection, and really connecting with people in a heart led way that is natural and authentic and attuned to meet their needs rather than the aggressive side of it that we might kind of connect to NVR.

And I came to it, I'm an adoptive mum, solo adopter and when my son moved in 10 and a half years ago now, it feels like a lot longer sometimes, we had some challenges. He had huge levels of trauma and needs and they came out in some really aggressive ways, verbally and physically.
And I was at a bit of a loss. I was trying what the way many of us parent and that kind of traditional approach that we would have been brought up with, with rewards and consequences and all of those things.
But actually for many children with trauma or neurodivergent, they don't work because they're not trying to do what they're doing on purpose. It's not intentional. It's the only way they know how to express themselves because they may not have learned other things. They may not have the connection. They were in a place of fear, even if they're safe in the house they were in. And I would hope my son was safe in my house. He didn't feel it because of his early childhood experiences. So his behaviour was coming out in some not great ways.
And eventually by, I'm going to say by luck actually, I got sent on a one day NVR course. I was like, I'll try anything.
You know, when you're at that point where you are literally like, I will try anything because I don't know what to do. And I remember sitting in a room with, I can't remember every time I think, I think there may have been 50 parents in there. Other times I think more, but I came out thinking, wow, this is, this could really, really help. And it felt a really natural way to parent for me, you know, very much around connection, not about telling them off for being naughty.
It was about, I can see you're struggling. How can I help? You know, and doing it from that perspective.
But I also came out thinking, how lucky am I to have found this when I'm only being hit and kicked.
You know, I wasn't dealing with a teenager who was, ate all of them being bigger than me, but with much more significant behaviours, which also was a bit of a, hold on, I shouldn't feel lucky for being hit and kicked. You know, I shouldn't be in that place going, oh, I'm only being hit and kicked. That's okay.
That shouldn't feel lucky.
But I started to put the approach in and back then, this was nine and a half years ago, there was very little support. So I had to just do it from my notes and try and work it out. And I did, and I played around with it and it worked.
You know, within weeks I started to see a difference. And that was in the January. I went on the course in the May. I was like, I need to get this out to other parents. I need to train in this and get this out because this is a game changer.
So in the September I retrained and then started sharing it with parents and I've been doing it ever since.

C: Yeah.

S: It's still my way of parenting now.
It's still not perfect by any stretch. I certainly don't do it perfectly all the time. I can still get angry sometimes and I can still revert to those old ways that have just, they've instilled in us, aren't they? They're really natural ways of doing things.
But it's meant that we have a really strong bond, even when things are tough. And even when they're struggling underneath, we've got a really strong bond and he feels safe and is growing into a pretty cool young man.

C: Yes, that's really cool.
And we met when I was after a bit of NVR coaching for support with my two boys, because I was a single parent, also an adopter. I was a single parent at the time.
Didn't start off as a single adopter, but as is the case for lots of people who begin that journey, became a single adopter.
And I similarly was in a situation where there were really, really difficult things going on. And I had done a bit of NVR before we met.
Again, for me, it just seemed to fit really well. And it has become along, I would say, with a handful of other sort of philosophies and approaches, because I think it fits with other things as well. But it's been an absolute bedrock of the way that I've communicated and parented my kids and the way that we have kind of done family together.
And I would say your comment that even when things are difficult, you've got a good relationship underneath. And I would say that that is the key thing that has changed for us too.
That when things are difficult, we've actually got language to talk about it with one another, which then means you can tackle whatever it is that's going on, that I think is really helpful.

I'm hoping that we will talk together about NVR and also about how it works beyond parenting.
It gives you principles, doesn't it, for all relationships.

S: It does. And it was Haim Omar who created it.
He developed it from what had been used in the sociopolitical field. So Gandhi, Martin Luther King, who brought around huge amounts of sociopolitical change, whether you agree with their politics or not, they brought around a lot of change without recourse to violence. And that's where the principles come from.
And it's been developed over time to work with families, but in loads of different settings.
I've used it adult to adult.
I used it when I went back to school after I'd been trained because I was working in a school at the time with the staff. Don't tell them I was using it. It probably looked a bit strangely, but I was definitely using it.
And you can use it in any environment because it's about how do you connect with the other person.
And as you said, actually, if we can use it and create a strong relationship underneath, whether that's with our partners or our friends, we've then got a language to deal with any challenges we might have. Yeah. And we can work together. And it's that basis of relationship that means we can adjust it to any environment, basically.

C: Yeah. Very powerful.

S: Very powerful.

C: I think very powerful.
So do you want to start to talk to us about if you were going to kind of think, I want to begin to think about how this might fit my life?
What might be some of the key principles and ideas?

S: I'm going to start by thinking about this idea of being present with people, because I think we live in a world where we are so busy. We can often be with somebody, but not actually with them.
So you might be sitting on the sofa every night with your other half, with your friend or whoever kids, but actually your brain isn't really in the room. Your brain is flicking through your emails and thinking about what you need to do tomorrow and what happened at work today and all those other things. And you could be having a conversation with that other person, but in that kind of half-hearted, not really focused on it way, we've probably all done it.

I'm sure Catherine, you haven't, but I might've done it once or twice, not really been in the room and kind of gone, yeah, yeah, yeah. No idea what I'm agreeing to or saying yes to, just kind of saying it because your brain is in eight different places.

When we're talking about presence from this perspective, we're talking about being really present in the room.

And it's not about all day, every day. That's not possible. We all learn during lockdown, you can't be present with somebody all the time, but you can be in the same building.
So when we're thinking about this kind of presence, it's maybe, you know, even just 10, 15 minutes a day when they've got your undivided attention. And absolutely in most of my work, we're talking parent to child, but that could be parent, you know, partner to partner. It could be with your mum, your sister, your friend, whoever. So when they ring you and you're on the phone to them, instead of doing four other things at the same time and pretending to listen and hope they don't notice you're doing four other things at the same time, it's actually stopping and listening to that phone call and engaging with it much more fully.

And so it's that sense of presence that it changes how they respond to you as well, because they go, oh, you're actually listening to me. You're really interested in what I'm saying. And we all know we can have conversations with people where we might not be totally interested in the topic, but actually when someone shows interest in us, it makes us feel so much better.

C: So what do you need to do internally to create the space for that present?

S: That's a really interesting one, isn't it? Because I think we have to recognise in ourselves when we're not being present, maybe reflect on why as well. You know, what's stopping me from being present?
And a mum said to me the other day, I've got to get off the hamster wheel.
And I went, that's a really interesting way of describing it because she said, I'm just in go, go, go, go, go mode all the time.
Being present means I've got to stop, just be with my child and then go and do the other thing I've got to do.

A few weeks ago now, I was working overnight running some training for a company the other side of the world. And I said to my son, please don't wake me up in the morning because I'm going to need to sleep in because you know, I'm really grumpy when I'm tired. To which obviously he agreed and said, yes, you are very grumpy, mum, I'll let you sleep in. I was like, thanks. And when I got up, my immediate reaction was I need to do this, I need to do that, blah, all this stuff went on. Now I could have gone and done all that and half talked to him, then that wouldn't have really built a relationship, it wouldn't have helped. I wouldn't have got everything done so quickly. When I was like, actually, now I'm going to sit and stop and chat to him. We had this wonderful conversation as she went on a lot longer than I thought it would. But it was really genuine connection. And then when it finished, I went off to do what I needed to do, without any judgment or fear or guilt of I should be doing that I should be doing I should be with him and got through what I needed to do in half the time.
Because actually, I was then able to focus on one thing.

And I think we live in a world where we tend to think we should be multitasking the whole time.
But actually, if we can do one thing, we'd probably do it quicker. But that's also allowing our mind and be willing to take that step back.

C: Yeah.

S: And I think we certainly, I don't know, maybe more as women put a lot of pressure on ourselves to get a lot done during the day.

C: Yeah.

S: And if we're trying to do so much, we then kind of end up doing a little bit of everything and nothing very well necessarily. And it's just being able to say, actually, I'm going to step back, I'm going to focus on this now, then I'm going to focus on that.
And the benefit of that with your child or your partner, whoever, it's actually a better relationship. It might mean less arguments, it might mean a nicer time.

And I don't know about you, but I'm all up for less arguments.
It's quite nice. That is excellent.

C: Excellent plan. Let's all go for less arguments.

S: And your arguments take a lot more of our energy and our time, whether that's with your other half, your sister, whoever that's with. If you're like me, you then focus on the argument and you go over and over it in your head and you think about it and you've got to rebuild and reconnect.

Why not just take the time to build the connection in the first place and be really present with that person?

I love it when I've had a really good connection with somebody. It lifts me up. It tops my tank up, if that makes sense, and I feel better from it. So I think it's allowing ourselves that time and space. And so often we don't in this world.

C: Yeah. I think your comment that as women in particular, we're sort of always rushing to the next thing. I was just thinking that particularly if you're in a situation that feels like it's not going well or that, you know, like when home life has become really difficult, then that sense of rush and hurry and I must sort this and I must be doing the next thing, I think can really take over. And so taking a step back from that can be tricky.

The other thing I was thinking as you're talking is that actually if the connection is deep enough, it doesn't have to be for very long.

S: No, 30 seconds sometimes is literally, you know, my son can be walking past me and we can do a fist bump. He doesn't like hugs. He's not that kind of a kid, but a fist bump, he's like, Oh, you've clocked me. You know, I'm here. You know what I need?

You know, or if you've got a teenager particularly like, "Oh, don't want to spend time with you, you know, go away." That 30 seconds when they come down to raid the fridge, which most teenagers do, just stopping for that 30 seconds again, what do you want? Can I help you find it? Anything like that. Again, that's, I recognise you. I see you. I'm interested in you. And that can just change the dynamics so much.

And it is, it's those short amounts of time that can be a game changer as much as 20 minutes or an hour, whatever, whatever works.

C: Yeah. Yeah.
So it kind of feels like there's a couple of things there. One is the connection and the other is that indication "I see you".

S: Yeah. And I think as humans, we all want to be seen and heard, don't we?

C: Yeah.

S: And it's not necessarily about being agreed with, but it's knowing someone's listened to you and heard what you're saying and maybe understands what you need in that moment.

We don't all need words. We might need a hug or we might just need a space to be able to say whatever it is we're thinking and know that it's a safe space to say it.

It's finding those bits, but I think as parents, it can be really hard to do it. And you know, if things are challenging, we can often want to avoid those people that are challenging us.

If you are struggling with a relationship with your child or whoever, it's quite normal to kind of go, I'm going to step back. I don't want to be too close to them. I'm going to try and avoid them. And it was the more we do that, actually the worse the relationship becomes because the more you might misread each other's signals, the more you might misinterpret what they're doing.

A child is going to feel less and less safe when their parent backs away from them and actually their behaviour is likely to get worse.

C: Yeah.

S: And it's that being able to, as the adult, step in and say actually things are tough, but I'm still here for you. We'll work through this together. And then absolutely, you know, having that connection with somebody else around you as the adult to help you be able to manage that.

Everything we do is about showing the child or whoever you are there for them, you love them, you see them, you hear them, you want to spend time with them, whatever's happening.

You said, what do we need to do to be able to do that?
And my other pillar is something that I know you like, and that's baskets. Because if we're trying to scatter gun approach everything, we don't have time.

Whereas if we write everything down, we've got to do and prioritise it.
You know, most of us prioritise our to do lists, whether that's at home, at work, whatever environment you're in. This is doing the same thing, actually, what do I need to do?
Are there things I need to help my child with more?
Or, you know, all the things I've got to do today, what are the priorities?
What can wait?

Well, I know for me, sometimes it was putting the washing on or tidying the kitchen, because actually, spending that time with my son got us to a better place and created a stronger relationship. And sometimes just being present with yourself as well. And doing no thing or doing the thing that you love is actually enables you to be present more with other people as well.

C: Yeah, yeah.

S: So that idea of looking after ourselves, and saying, well, I could do the washing up, or I could just go and sit down for five minutes and listen to my favourite music or read my book or do something like that also enables us to be more present.

C: Yeah.
It might be that for some people in some moments, actually doing the washing up, and then glorying in a tiny kitchen might be the thing that you need to do.

S: Yeah, yeah. It's not mine, Catherine. I just like to say that.
I know a lot of people do and that's brilliant, but not my thing.
I do it in two minutes later, it looks a mess again. I'm like, what was the point?
But yeah, absolutely. It's doing that thing that makes you feel good in that moment and connects you because so often, I think particularly as parents, we can lose who we are as individuals.

C: Yeah.

S: We become so consumed with parenting that actually us as the individual disappears. And if we're not connected to ourselves or our own emotions, it's much harder to connect to our children.

C: Yeah.

S: Help them understand their emotions as well if we never show ours or we only ever show stress.

C: So in terms of the being present, what you're talking about then is being present to yourself.

S: Yeah.

C: And creating that connection with yourself and not just with other people.

S: Yeah, absolutely.

C: I'm just wondering whether there are sort of in particular kind of work situations sometimes where things have become so difficult and so stressed that people lose connection with themselves.

S: Yeah, absolutely. I think any environment where you are stressed, and I worked in schools for years, they are incredibly stressful environments. You know, there's a lot of pressure from all directions, from the parents, from the kids, from the government, from you know, all of those different things from within the school to manage and loads of different relationships.
And I mean, that's the same in many different organisations, isn't it?
And actually, the more stressed we get, the more disconnected we become.

My go-to when I'm very stressed is micromanaging. So I might try and if I'm managing a team in school, they knew when I was really stressed, because I was starting to manage every single little thing they were doing. And they were like, here's more Diet Coke, Sarah, here's more chocolate. My go-tos, they're still my go-tos, it has to be said. Not healthy, but they're still my go-tos.

And they were like, step back, because they knew my stress response was, has this done? Is that done? Where were you with this? Where were you with that? And it's recognising that maybe in your colleagues and saying, are you okay? And just checking in without judgement, without blame, you know, and wondering you're struggling at the moment.

C: Yeah, let me be present with you. And let me tell you that I've noticed you.

S: Yeah.

C: So you were starting to talk about baskets, which I remember when I started doing NVR was one of the most helpful things, but actually also one of the most challenging things. So do you want to explain what a basket is?

S: Yeah.
So we have, actually we do two now, but I'll start at three.
So we have baskets where you write down everything. So if you think about it from a parenting perspective, yeah. And maybe you have a child and you're struggling, maybe they've got some challenging behaviours. You're struggling because your expectations are that they should sit at the table. They should be at school every day. They should be doing their homework. They should not be swearing. They should be coming in on time, not smoking, whatever it is that the parent is struggling with. We write them all down.
So everything that the parent is annoyed with, frustrated, finds irritating, thinks it's unacceptable.
And some parents I've worked with, I think there's probably steam coming off the pen as they've written this list as fast as they can. Yeah. Big long list. And you're like, Whoa, that's a lot. And of course, if we've got all of that in our brain, it's really overwhelming because you're trying to manage everything at the same time.

C: I think, I can't remember whether it was 40 or 60 items on my list when I wrote it.

S: It was quite a long list, Catherine. I do remember that. I do remember thinking that's quite a long list, but I, you know, I didn't want to share that.
No, but that's really normal. I think because sometimes we know when we get the point, when we want to go and work with somebody and we feel we need some help, often we've waited until we're in crisis point.

And we know that don't we, in any walk of life, if you're struggling, we tend to not ask for help until we've got to breaking point.
A lot of people wait until, I'm not saying you're at breaking point, but a lot of people wait until they're quite far down the line to get that support. And also I say to you and every other parent we work with, write down everything. And I mean everything. Yeah. You know, when things aren't put in the laundry basket, when they don't put the lid back on the toothpaste, let's get everything out of your head and onto a piece of paper because then we can start prioritising it and saying, okay, where do we need to start?
What needs to be dealt with first?
And we pick one or two behaviours. And for the vast majority of parents, they are not, they don't put the lid back on the toothpaste. You know, that's a, it's an irritation, but it's not a major thing. They will be much more challenging behaviours for a lot of the families that we work with.

So we pick those one or two things and we put all of our energy into stopping those behaviours, but not stopping from rewards and consequences. If you do that again, this is happening way, very much from a being present, from a connecting, from a helping of the child, understand themselves and thinking about how else can I express my anger, my frustration, my fear, my worry, my anxiety that is safe, not just to the people around them, but for them as well.
Because obviously some children turn their anger outwards, some turn it inwards.

And so it's really working with them kind of collaboratively to get, to find those solutions to help them.

But it's the parents saying everything else that's on my list, I'm putting to one side for now. And I'm going to kind of ignore for now, the really important part of that sentence is for now, not forever. Now, some parents we work with will have a few things in the middle that's like, Joe, I might pick these up. I'm going to take a bit of a judgement call as to whether or not I need to deal with these, depending on if it becomes a safety issue or where we are or that kind of stuff. But increasingly we've been working with parents now saying these are the two or three things I'm dealing with.
Everything else is going in there for later basket.

C: Yeah.

S: As long as it's not a safety thing, obviously if something happens that's a safety thing, you're going to pick it up for everybody's safety.

And what we find is that parents often feel a lot less overwhelmed than not trying to deal with everything. It kind of gives us permission to put things to one side.

C: Yeah.

S: Which in society we don't often get, you need to deal with everything as a parent because you're the parent and you need to stop your child from doing all of this stuff. Whereas obviously actually no, leave those for now. That's great.

C: I think parenting has a huge list of expectations on it, which range from doing your homework properly, always having the thing to take to school when it's wear something red day, to developing an appreciation of avocado on toast.

S: I love avocado on toast, you're not taking that one.

C: You can have as much avocado on toast as you like. But you know what I mean?
And it was interesting that actually one of the things that needed to change for me was having a system and having a professional say, and I remember you called the little basket with a couple of things and a red basket and the rest of the green basket. That you're only allowed a couple of things in this basket meant that I had permission to put everything else down and just focus on what were the really major things that were happening.
And quite a lot of those were things that other people really thought we ought to be dealing with.

But what that created for us was relational space.
Because when you think you're being a bad parent, if you're not developing the liking for avocado on toast and getting them to sit at the table and all of those things, if you're trying to maintain all of that, so many of your interactions with your kids are going to be around stuff that is negative because you're trying to change everything at once.
So where is the space for positive connection when you're doing that?

S: And I think that's, you know, that's so powerful, isn't it? Because when we create space, we create space for that connection, for that presence that we talked about. We don't have a child who hears no, no, no, no, no, all the time. You shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing this. Which just becomes nagging and they switch off to it anyway. They don't hear it.

And so often, and I've seen this with so many families, when we just focus on those red basket behaviours, a lot of the other ones just dissolve and stop happening.
Because actually the child isn't getting maybe the attention that they were getting from doing those things. They've learned that I don't need to do that to get attention actually. I can get attention just by sitting next to my mum and chatting or, you know, doing other things. They're getting positive connection. Whereas some children will do anything for connection, positive or negative.
And so often those green basket things just resolve, which creates more space for positive connection and it kind of snowballs and moves forward.

And as we're teaching them how not to, I don't know, maybe swear when they're angry or shout when they're angry, that knowledge ripples through to everything else.

C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

S: And it changes their internal understanding of themselves and their own emotional intelligence.

C: It also, it's made a big difference to me in terms of my own perspective on what's important. So those things which I felt I was going to be a failure as a mother if I didn't tackle all of these things.
Well, once you stop trying to fight all of the battles all of the time, it gets easier and you get a better perspective, I think.

S: Absolutely. And I think how often are we trying to do something because we were brought up and told that was the right thing to do?

C: Yeah.

S: You know, I often use the example of table manners. Now before I say anything, table manners are brilliant, they're really good. But some of our kids just can't manage them. And if you have a child with really ADHD who maybe just cannot sit still, asking them to sit at the table for an hour and a half is really difficult for some of them.
Allowing them to get up at times or putting, you know, stretchy bands around the legs of their chair so they can keep their legs moving to help them regulate or appreciating that your child is autistic and they have really high sensory needs and actually sitting next to somebody else who's chewing is really hard for them.
Actually taking that board and going, okay, so how does that fit in with my need for a family meal with all of us sitting around the table?
If that family meal is ending up in everybody getting really angry and cross, it's probably not the best way of connecting.
It might be everybody eats in a way that works for them so that everybody eats and everybody gets some vegetables down them or chicken nuggets and chips, whatever they'll eat. And actually we do connection at a different time.

C: Yes, I got to the point of thinking what's most important, that we sit around a table eating together and it's chaos or that my children eat some food sometimes.

S: Yes, absolutely.
And I think this isn't about not teaching them how to use a knife and fork. No one's saying don't teach them how to do that.
But if they'll eat food and so, you know, I've had a number of parents say to me, actually when my kids are eating their dinner in front of the telly, they will eat more. They'll eat a broader range of foods. That's much better for them than when they're at the table and they'll eat two chicken nuggets and a chip and they won't touch anything else.

C: I also think we can sometimes forget that we are playing a long game.
So it's interesting, isn't it, that education and healthcare plans now recognise that growing up and adolescence takes us to about 25.
And so if you set that as your kind of target, I would like my child to become a functioning adult who can be independent in the world by about the age of 25. Or maybe 20 or whenever that is. And maybe that doesn't happen at all for some people.
But what that takes away from you is the I need to teach my child how to do table manners now because they probably don't need to. And let's face it, they will sort that out if they need to at some later date.

S: Absolutely. And you're right, we're in our mid to late 20s before we are able to fully self-regulate.

C: Yeah.

S: If our brain is fully developed. So we're asking an eight year old, for example, to manage their emotions and calm themselves down. They cannot do that because their brain doesn't know how.
And we have to teach them but often our expectations are they will just know how to do it.
But that does mean that as parents, we have to know how to do it and be connected to ourselves and our own emotions to be able to talk to them about their emotions.

C: Yeah.

S: And support them with it. And in the baskets, as you said, you know, it gives us that space to create more conversations, more support and more positive connection.

C: And have you found yourself using baskets more broadly in your life apart from for picnics?

S: Yes. I use them all the time.
It sounds really bad. Because actually what it does is it, it does empower you to say, right, where do we need to focus? So I use it with my team at Connected Family. So right, there's all the stuff we've got to do. We're scattergunning at the moment. Where do we need to actually put our energies now?
And if that brings everybody, if it reduces my stress load and goes, right, this is where I'm putting all my focus. I do it at home with the things I've got to do. I did it, I've done it in schools and in other organisations where we said, well, actually, what needs to be the focus right now? What can we leave to one side? And actually, if we focus on this, what else might happen?

C: Yeah.

S: What are these things might naturally either just happen because you do this. So it just sort of flows through and makes it easier or doesn't need to be done because you've done this and focused on this.

And I think that's the way we don't always think like that, do we? And I, we think everything's got to be done. It's all got to be done now.
It doesn't.

C: Yeah, cool. So you talked about presents, you talked about baskets, what else Sarah?

S: There's something around our ability to regulate ourselves when our children are disregulated so that we can help them.
And that in the moment when they are struggling with big emotions, we actually help them rather than tell them off.
Because I think so often, and we see this, you know, you could read things in schools about zero tolerance, you mustn't misbehave, you've got to be perfect.
A child can't be. If they're becoming disregulated, they need help from an adult to regulate themselves.
And in that moment, they need to not be told off and given a consequence because it's not going to stop their behaviour in that moment, they can't.
But afterwards, you can then have what we often call deferred conversation, which is Joe, I could see you were struggling earlier, how can I help?

And again, that's raising presence, it's raising connection, but it's also that emotional understanding.

When I'm really cross that, I don't know, something's happened, whatever's happened. I go for a walk, have a drink, you know, dance around the kitchen, I love a kitchen disco for a bit of regulating.
But you share with the child what it is you do that helps you regulate to give them some ideas, because then they can start to go, Oh, yeah, I started to feel it, help them recognise where they feel their anger.

You know, I know when I'm stressed, it's straight into my shoulders, and into my head and that kind of stuff.
But some kids won't recognise that feeling in their body. So in the moment when they're getting really when you're seeing the emotions come up, teenagers are brilliant. Well, toddlers can be great, it's all kids can be great at it, adults can be great at it. But you know, particularly teens when their emotions are coming up, if we can actually, in that moment, help them regulate and co regulate and help them absorb the emotion, we can then talk to them afterwards when they're calm, when they're able to hear what we're saying as well.

Because I think so often we forget that in the moment, and if I'm really angry, and you say you just need to calm down. That's about the most useless phrase on the planet.
I can't calm myself down because I'm really angry and I don't want to calm down. I'm just going calm down. It makes you more angry, doesn't it?
It doesn't help.

C: Yeah.

S: You want to be heard. And you want someone they says, it's okay, I've got this. I'm here with you. I can see your anger. It's okay.

But often, we don't do that for people, particularly children will say, No, calm down. Don't do that. You mustn't behave like that.
We don't say here, come and do this with me. Let's get your anger out and show them safe ways of doing it.
And we don't talk to them afterwards. In a way this is I get it, you're angry.

And it's not to say, do what you like. It's still saying, okay, maybe you were a bit rude to a friend. That's not great.
Let's think about other ways you can manage it when you're angry. Is there an adult you can go and find? Can you go and run around the garden? Can you whatever it is, that helps them not feel shame for the way they've behaved? Not feel bad? Because if they've done something, no, they shouldn't. They've already got those feelings inside. They don't need it kind of emphasised, but helps them to learn and grow. And that's how we grow an emotionally intelligent society.

C: Yeah, Yeah.
And that makes so much sense. And you're completely right that we can't, none of us actually can take on board good advice when we're either really scared or really stressed or really angry. You just need space to calm down.

S: And even as an adult, sometimes you need somebody else to be there for you.
You need that adult to come and say it's all right, or give you a hug or do whatever.

Children need it even more.

C: Yeah.

S: They just can't vocalise it.

C: What I noticed as I was learning to parent using NVR is that one of the big challenges with that was how I felt other people might be seeing my parenting in those difficult moments. Because it looks like you are doing nothing.

So I remember at a point when we were frequently needing repairmen to sort out the things that were broken in our house, due to the things going on that I was trying to address. And he'd come round to do some fixing on a morning when I was taking the kids away. So he'd come around and we were getting ready to go on holiday. And both of my kids, like a lot of children who've experienced trauma, both of my kids find transitions from one activity to another or going somewhere incredibly, incredibly difficult and stressful.
And how that was coming out was that one of my boys was doing an awful lot of swearing at me and an awful lot of being incredibly rude. And a lot of sort of, well, I'm not getting in the bleep de bleep de bleep de car.

And I could see that he found both their behaviour towards me and my lack of response to them actually really quite challenging.
But I knew I'd kind of learned enough by then that if I changed my approach, because there happened to be somebody watching that wasn't going to go well, and there wasn't going to be a lot of point in that.
And interestingly, we were driving to Yorkshire and it was about two hours later, we'd stopped at McDonald's and my son was calm. And I was able to say, "you know, before we left when you were swearing at me", and he looked at me and said, "oh, yeah, I'm sorry about that."
And I could tell that we didn't need to say anything else.
He knew, he knew it wasn't the right thing to do. He knew he shouldn't have done it. And on another occasion, we might have had more of a conversation about what might you do differently. But actually that's what you need, isn't it?
For somebody to recognise that that wasn't a great thing to do, and to have a level of wanting to repair that and repair the relationship.

S: Absolutely. And it's very hard, isn't it? When you know people around you're expecting you to parent in a different way.

C: Yes.

S: And make you should be telling them off, you should be doing that.


C: "I wouldn't allow that" is a favourite phrase.

S: I'm very pleased for you. Congratulations.
And I think it takes a lot of internal courage and self belief to actually know I'm doing this because I know this works for my child.

C: Yeah.

S: And being around other people who get it and are parenting in that way as well can be really important. Just keep going, you're doing it, keep going, it's working.
Because so often people will, well, if it was my child, I'd have done this and they wouldn't do that anymore.
And there's always part of me says, Do you not think I've tried that? Do you honestly think I haven't tried yelling? Because if it worked, it wouldn't be happening, would it?

C: Yes, I think my favourite phrase is "be firmer", you need to be firmer as if that isn't the first tool that every parent gets out of their box. "I'm going to be firmer about this".

S: It is hard. And I know when you start out using this approach to parenting, it can feel so counterintuitive. If you are using lots of consequences and the shouting and those things.

Which I get, it's you know, it's still sometimes it's still our natural reaction to go to this can feel so counterintuitive, it can be really hard. And when things don't change overnight, that sense of well, it's not working. It takes a long time for you to change and genuinely respond more calmly every time.
And for your kids go, you're not shouting at me anymore.
And children, you know, when they - they feel safer getting what they know. So if shouting is the way they know, like if I press your buttons, mum or dad enough times you get angry with me, which allows me to get angry at you, which gets you more angry. Actually, then I can let out all these emotions I've got inside of me. I don't know how else to let them out yet.
Oh, you're not angry. I need to find another button to press. Right.
Okay, I'll go and do that one. Oh, yeah. What about that one as well? What about that one? Or, or the dog that works. I'll go for the dog. Do you think they would do or their brother or their sister, they will do whatever they can to press their parents buttons, because they want what they know. And that's hard then as a parent to go, Okay, I need to keep going.

We're getting there and just keep that believing because when you respond differently over time, they have to.

And that's the same adult to adult.
If you and I are in a friendship where it's shouting all the time, if I stop shouting at you, you've got nothing to shout back against after a while. So you are going to change how you communicate with me. And that goes in offices as well, doesn't it?
You know, if you change your communication style with somebody, they will change how they communicate with you over time.
However unintentional on their part, they might try and carry on for a long time, but they're going to have to because you're not giving them fuel for the fire.

That's the bit that it's hard to carry on doing this when everybody around you is saying change.

But if rewards and consequences worked, a lot of us wouldn't be here. And I wouldn't be doing what I was doing.

C: Yeah.

S: Schools wouldn't have kids going round around the detention loop and getting excluded, because one consequence and the behaviour would stop.

C: Oh, it's way easier to have a sticker chart than it is to have to regulate and understand your own emotions and be present to your kid.

S: Yeah, loads easier. I've had kids, I remember doing principal's detention and talking to some of the kids going, "Are you here last time I was here?" "Oh yeah, miss, we all come together and then we all get the bus home."
"Huh? Okay." And they're like, "We just go round the detention loop together." And there was literally a group of kids because it didn't mean anything to them. So I'm like, whatever it is we're trying to change with these kids isn't working because they don't see it as an issue. And actually, if that's your belief around yourself, then why would you change your behaviour? Maybe your confidence is low, your self-belief is low, you believe you are the naughty and inverted commas kid, I don't like the word naughty, but you know, those things, then why would you try and understand yourself? It's got to come from the narrative we give our children or our partner, our friends, whoever, that actually you're worth it. You're worth my time, you're worth my presence.You're worth my connection. I want to connect with you. I want to be present. And when you're struggling, I'm here to help you, not I'm going to tell you off.

C: Yes. Yeah. One of the things I think is quite helpful about NVR is that it's very open about the fact that we can't make anybody else do anything.
You can't make your child do something. And to do that actually is committing an act of violence.
But equally, they can't make you do anything. Absolutely.

I don't quite know how to put it into words, but that sense of I will stand my ground in my territory, and you can't make me do things differently. Other people shouting at me about how I ought to parent can't make me do things differently. I can't make my children, but we can journey together.

S: Yeah, we can't. You know, no one can make me or you or us as an individual feel a certain way or do a certain thing.

C: Yeah.

S: How I respond is not necessarily my choice. It might be very instinctive, but it is under my control.
Obviously, sometimes we get tripped into our own fight and flight response. If our children have pressed enough buttons, or we've got other things going on and we're just really heightened. But we do manage that. And you know, we also need to teach our children they can't be controlled.

C: Yeah.

S: But hopefully through relationship through connection, they want to do those things. But also know that they can say to you as their parent, I really don't want to do that. Or I don't feel comfortable doing that. Is there a way we can change it or adapt it, that means I can feel comfortable doing it?

C: Yeah, yeah.

S: And if you've got a neurodivergent child, then even more so, you know, the world is not designed for them. You know, the world is designed for neurotypical people.

C: Yeah.

S: And it's just giving them the confidence to advocate for their needs. And I think we do that by focusing on our connection and raising our presence with them and helping them understand themselves and saying, it's okay to get it wrong sometimes.

C: Yeah.

S: You know, I'm still here for you. I still love you. We just need to help you think about how you do it differently next time.

C: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
So one of the things that I looked at, was what are the behaviours that I'm engaging in that are not helping things because I can change me. It was a case of like little tiny things that I could shift. But one of those was the fact that my kids used to shout for me through the house and I would kind of go running. So I would end up running myself ragged. And so swapping that for well, why do I need to actually, I don't need to be running around after you. I can just tell you, well, I'm here if you want something. I'm not listening to shouting through the house, but you can come and find me and ask.
And that was a simple thing which shifted things quite profoundly actually.

S: And that's you also, you know, putting a boundary up around how you will and won't be treated. And it's not a rule to the children. You're not saying you must do it like this.

C: No.

S: You're saying this is what I will and won't accept. And I think that's the difference. Or you were connecting to yourself and saying what works for me in all of this.

C: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think links with where you were saying this all comes from, which is the kind of the nonviolent resistance that people engaged in.

S: Yeah, it's doing it continuously. You know, it's still the way I parent now. It's not something we only do when things are really bad.
Because for me parenting from a place of connection is why wouldn't I want to parent from a place of connection and teach my child to understand himself and his emotions and advocate for himself longer term, you know, all of those things and be confident yet and comfortable in himself, which other ways of parenting might unintentionally not create.
And I'm not saying anybody who's doing rules and consequences is damaging their child or any of that stuff.
It's just about what is right for your individual child.

Certainly if they've got trauma, a therapeutic approach is going to help. And even neurodivergent, you know, rules and consequences don't change things.

C: No.

S: As you said, it's that inner work isn't it? As a parent, how do I want to parent that works for my child?
Not necessarily what feels the easiest or more natural for me.

C: Yeah. And the thing which I thought was the best fun, kind of unconditional relational gestures, just letting people know that you love them, without expecting anything in return. Yeah.

S: Yeah. They're so beautiful. Because it's not about spending money. It's about just saying I love you because.

C: Yes.

S: And you know, so often we live in a world where people do something nice for you, they expect something in return. And I'm like, no, just send your child that text message if they've got a phone or leave them a note on their pillow or put a note in their lunchbox or you know, whatever it is that would light your child up and go, Oh, mum had thought about me, dad's thought about me, they love me. That's that feeling of being loved, of somebody caring about you, somebody thinking about you when they don't see you. If you're in the supermarket when they're at school, just buying their favourite drink for a change and leaving it in the fridge.

C: Yes.

S: And if you have a child with really low self belief, just leaving it there for them to find it is much easier for them to accept than here I bought this drink. You're amazing. I've got you this lovely thing. It's just there for you. Okay, thanks. Yeah, I got it.

C: Yeah, little low key, but little low key things.

S: And I say it's not about spending money. I mean, yeah, a drink maybe, but it's not about buying the latest Lego set, which is ridiculous amounts of money these days. It's just those little low key things that I was thinking about you.

C: So it's sort of the parenting version of romantic gestures really.

S: Yeah.

C: So but it might be I know you're into cars and I've seen a Ferrari so I'll take you a picture of one and text it to you.

S: Yeah, absolutely. We have got actually up the road from us we've got a Lamborghini garage, not a brand new one, one that will repair them.

C: Yeah.

S: I quite like them, and they drive in like, can I take a photo without looking odd? Because I know it works. I like it. And my son's like, look what I saw today. Because they are and they often the old vintage ones. So they're beautiful. And you just think actually that like you say it shows that I was interested in but I thought about you while I was there.

It's those bits that create connection and thought I raise our presence without us necessarily thinking about it.

You know, you might have to plan them so that your child doesn't start expecting something all the time. You know, on a Monday at six, you always do something nice for me, but it's just building it up and building up their self confidence and their belief.

And like I say, like those romantic gestures. I'm sure you had loads of bunches of flowers and lovely romantic gestures appearing. Yeah, those things that someone does for you just because.

C: Yes, yeah. And the power of it is that if you do something in a low key way that can't be refused, then you don't have to get into a fight about it.
Because one of the things about children who've experienced trauma in particular is that they can't always cope with the big gesture or the big praise or the big statement that you think that they're marvellous because it's just too much.

So I remember my youngest used to sabotage stuff.

S: I think these gestures work so well for adults as well. You know, if somebody's done something nice at work, just leaving them a note or you know, doing something nice.

And also you were saying they can't accept how many adults can't cope with a compliment.

C: One or two.

S: And you say, wow, you look amazing today. And they go, what this whole thing, I just dragged it out the back of the wardrobe because they actually can't cope with a compliment. So they throw it back at you. And it's not about the person giving the compliment. It's about how they feel in that moment.
And as an adult, we can kind of accept an adult not taking a compliment. But if a child doesn't take the nice gesture, we sometimes find it harder.
And I say it's about doing it in a way that is as understated and as subtle as they need it so that they can take it on board.
Kind of drip feeding. You know, all of this does link to us being more present with them and more present with ourselves that we've got the capacity to be more present with them. And to remember to do these gestures and to do all of this stuff and think, how do I feel when someone does something nice for me?
Actually, I really like it. How do I feel when it's so understated that they're not doing it right in front of me? And I don't go, how am I supposed to respond? What have I got to do back? Or I've got to do something nice for them back straight away, because that puts a pressure on you. And the more we can be connected, the more they can see us. All of these gestures, the baskets, it all kind of comes together to help them heal if they have trauma, recover, understand themselves, believe in themselves.

C: And in the shorter term, just take off a huge pile of pressure that comes with parenting. Because you're not trying to deal with everything. And you've got a number of things that you can do, which are completely within your power. So sending nice text messages and spending time and paying attention are all things that don't require a battle, I would say.

S: And I think actually thinking back to the baskets conversation, you know, some of those things that go in the green baskets are things that you might want to change, but not inside your power.

C: Yes.

S: I have no control over that. Therefore, it's going in the green basket, because I can't worry about it. It does me no good worrying about that. All I can do is focus on the here and now. I might be worried about what my child can do, does do is like in 10, 15 years time. But worrying about it doesn't change it. What I do now changes it, or has an impact on it.

C: Yeah. Are there other things that you feel that we've missed that will be helpful to add in?

S: The thing that popped into my head then is that so often we can feel isolated.
And parents can feel alone. And it's just finding that tribe. But also, you know, parents, you know, just checking in on them sometimes without judgment, just checking they're all right. Seeing if there's anything you can do. I have a lovely neighbour. So I regularly get her WhatsApp and she seems to know when I need cake. You know, she just seems to have this instinct knowing. And actually, for me, that's part of my support network because she comes she knocks on the door, she says, here you go, here's the cake made. And sometimes it's a few slices, but it's you're right.
And it's just that check in that having those people around you, there's no judgment in it. There's nothing in it. She knows that my son can struggle at times, but just having those people around you who get it and just being, I think, we need to just be a little bit more aware of the people around us, I suppose is what I'm saying and who might need help we become very, if you're not in a community of whether that's through your church or your child's school, whatever it is, just checking in on people sometimes and you know, just asking them if they're okay.

C: Yeah.

S: And that connection.

C: She's beautifully NVRing you, isn't she?

S: Oh, she is. She's just wonderful.

C: Unconditional gestures and not kind of feeling like she needs to fix it all because that is what we sometimes think we ought to do for people is why we're coming and telling you all the things that are wrong with your life that I could, that I would organise better were I doing it instead of you.

S: We need supporters or people around us who can just listen and hear.

C: Yeah.

S: And yeah, absolutely, you might need some people who can do the practical stuff to help you out and say, actually, I found this or what about this? But we also just need people who can hear it.

And actually, it's that co-regulation, isn't it? That we talked about, you know, parent to child, it's adult to adult.

C: Yeah.

S: That safe space to just unload and go.

C: And there are lots of people, it's not just parents with additional needs, kids who have a heavy load that they are bearing. So there are lots of people who could benefit.

S: We often don't know what's going on in somebody's life, particularly at work.
You don't know everything that's going on. You don't know what they're dealing with when they get home.
Just that checking in, just that doing a gesture can make such a difference to somebody's life.

And that for me is why this isn't just a parenting approach, obviously how I teach it most of the time, but it's not. This is a life approach. How can I actually live my life and just check in on people and make sure and build connection and build community and deal with that person who might be slightly argumentative today because they've had a bad morning or something happened last night or whatever. How do you deal with it in a calm way that helps them feel safe?

C: Yeah. Yeah.

S: Most of us would have somebody that there's a character clash or there's something that just doesn't quite work. And actually if you can use this approach, then you could make a huge difference for you and for them, you know, because maybe they're carrying around a load of stuff you don't know about and just having somebody listens to you then can make a huge difference.

C: Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. You have an organisation through which you provide support to parents. I know you were doing a podcast. Do you still do that?

S: Yep. So yeah, a company is called Connected Family and we work with parents to support them. We also train a lot of social workers, psychologists, school staff, and anybody will listen to be honest, Catherine, anyone who comes too close, they're being told about it.

So yeah, I do still have podcasts. I recorded some earlier this year. We're having a little break over the summer. Sometimes a bit hit or miss. That's in my basket. Sometimes it has to go in the green basket when I've got too much on, but yeah, we do do it. It's still out there.

It's got the ingenious name of Sarah Fisher Talks Connected Parenting. It's nice and simple.

C: Sarah Fisher Talks Connected Parenting.
So people would like to have a listen. They'll be able to find that.

S: Absolutely. And lots of them are short as well. So I know because they're aimed at parents predominantly. So they're 10, 15 minute episodes, a lot of them.

C: Yeah, I've never managed a 10 or 15 minute set. I just trust that parents could listen in little chunks if they wanted.

S: Yeah, no, I can't, can't they? It's probably more about my attention span sometimes while I'm doing it.

C: Well, thank you very much for concentrating.

S: I do them by myself. So it's often just me sharing a thought or something for 10, 15 minutes rather than like interviews like this.

C: So it's called Sarah Fisher Talks Connected Parenting. And then if people wanted to get in touch with you because they would be up for some coaching or to join your hub. I know you've got Facebook groups as well, haven't you, which are hugely helpful.

S: Yeah, we have. So if you go to connectivefamily.com, it's got a link to everything we do and you can contact me through there or it's Sarah at Connected Family, whatever's easiest for people.
We've got a free Facebook group where we share tips and ideas kind of on a daily basis pretty much. Anybody's welcome in there.

And then yeah, we do have a membership for parents where you can come and we've got tons of training videos and we give you more kind of individual support as much as we can do for those parents who need a little bit, but you know, just one that's around.

C: Yeah. So if anyone's interested in any of that, then I can vouch for the fact that that's a really, really good resource. So...

S: thank you

C: So thank you so much for joining us from your log cabin in the garden.

S: It's been lovely. And yeah, it's nice sitting in here. It's nice working from home, but not being at home.

C: Yes. Yeah. You can do the journey to work where you can let go of work or let go of home as you march across the garden with your coffee.

S: Or maybe stroll.

C: Yeah.

S: One or the other with a cat usually in hand.

C: Oh lovely.

S: It's been lovely.

C: Thank you so much. Lovely talking to you.

S: And to you. Thank you.

C: Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Loved Called Gifted podcast. If you'd like to get in touch, you can email lovedcalledgifted@gmail.com. You can find a transcript of this podcast at lovedcalledgifted.com. And that's also the place to go if you're interested in the Loved Called Gifted course, or if you'd like to find out about spiritual direction or coaching. Thank you for listening.